New broadsword marking Wundes head

M ELEY · 11th December 2019, 02:59 PM

I love the fact this sword is on the timeline of 1715 and "the 45" (Jacobite Rebellion). The rounded thin bars and 'S' guard indicative of the Stirling sword makers.

M ELEY · 19th December 2019, 08:28 AM

It turns out Ulfberth posted a half-basket sword with the exact king's head marking - here's the pics

And here's the thread-

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...sh+basket+hilt

I am not arguing as to the absoluteness of this being the Wundes mark. As I understand it, there might have been copiers of their mark. The 4 heads do appear of the pattern of Peter Wundes. As in Ulfberth's sword marking, there are no 'Andrea Ferara' lettering in between, but I'm not sure this is a deal-breaker for it not being Wundes. Just as we've seen that the different family members changed their logo over time (and they were around for an awfully long time!), I'd have to see proof that the Ferara marking was always present, especially for blades that were purely made for export-

In any case, at the very least, I think we can all agree the sword is period and not a reworking or a fake. Soon to have it in my grasp! Can't wait!

Note that Ulfberth's pictured sword is an English officer's type dating late 17th/early 18th c.

Jim McDougall · 19th December 2019, 05:22 PM

Hi Mark
Thank you for posting this and the link! It is good to see this thread from 2016 which I honestly had forgotten about. From this it is clear what a learning curve there is in the study of arms, and why I always say of myself, while I have 'studied' (obsessed) with swords for nearly five decades, I still truly feel effectively a student as I NEVER stop learning.

This interesting example posted by Ulfberth is indeed an English type of about 1740s+. Here the 'S' element (with scrolls) is seen as simply structural without specific symbolism, and aesthetically applied.

Rereading my notes from 2016, the kings head seems to have been 'acquired' by Weyersberg c. 1770s. As I have held, while German blade makers were well known to spuriously use key Spanish marks and wording/names, with some Italian, it does not seem they used those of their peers.

Here I would note that terms like 'always' or 'never' must be considered with profound caveat, as of course there were bound to be exceptions. In my view, the 'kings heads' marking convention of the Wundes 'dynasty' does appear to have had variations, and with that, the 'four' heads pattern seems to be the case.
While the interpolation of the popular ANDREA FERARA in my estimation would suggest added imbuement to the mystique of the already notable Wundes mark.
It seems that the four heads, and with this famed name exist in more abundance than I had been aware, but I still contend that it was not a standard, but a known variation.

These kinds of anomalies only add to the mystique and inherent charm of these amazing Scottish swords!

I cant wait for you to get it too Cap'n!!!!

M ELEY · 19th December 2019, 08:51 PM

Hello Jim and thanks for your help on this intriguing piece! Still not in hand, but I'm expecting it today or perhaps tomorrow (Christmas delays and all). I still feel the chronological time period of pre-Cullodan to be accurate based on the hilt patterning, S-bar ( which seems to have faded out or at least drastically changed mid century, etc). The Weyersberg marking king's head is very distinct, is bearded and looking straight ahead (not at an angle as these king's heads are, with even a side profile of the nose being apparent). The Weyersburg stamp also lacks the shoulders (?), torso (?) or whatnot of the king's head stamp on mine. It seems we just don't have enough information on the various stamps of the Wundes "clan", nor their metamorphosis over time. Spurious mark? Perhaps, or the real deal as yet not pinned down. In any case, I feel that our little friend here is smack dab in the middle of the two Rebellions, which is fine with me! Once in hand, I will carefully study the blade to see if there are any traces of other markings. Thanks again to all viewers and comments...
Mark

M ELEY · 23rd January 2021, 06:55 AM

I added a red buffer cloth to the basket as it would have had back in the day. This sword is still the gem in my collection; untampered with, intact and dating to the period of Culloden- 1730-40's. I've done some research on the king's heads as far as the Wundes family. This particular mark found on mine has several cousins that can be seen in "Culloden: The Swords and the Sorrows". Many of the German blades had the king's heads interspersed with 'Andrea Ferrera', some just have the name, while others have just the heads. It was noted that the Weyersburg smiths began using the king's head stamps in later (second half 18th c.) on their blades, but their stamp is very different from the earlier marks. Some of the blades pictured in that reference (taken from swords at the museum in Glascow) had very weak markings of the Fererra name, which makes me wonder if mine might have had that marking, but it got polished off over time. In any case, a great survivor of the time period!

11th December 2019, 02:59 PM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,077	More pics I love the fact this sword is on the timeline of 1715 and "the 45" (Jacobite Rebellion). The rounded thin bars and 'S' guard indicative of the Stirling sword makers. Attached Images

19th December 2019, 08:28 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,077	It turns out Ulfberth posted a half-basket sword with the exact king's head marking - here's the pics And here's the thread- http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...sh+basket+hilt I am not arguing as to the absoluteness of this being the Wundes mark. As I understand it, there might have been copiers of their mark. The 4 heads do appear of the pattern of Peter Wundes. As in Ulfberth's sword marking, there are no 'Andrea Ferara' lettering in between, but I'm not sure this is a deal-breaker for it not being Wundes. Just as we've seen that the different family members changed their logo over time (and they were around for an awfully long time!), I'd have to see proof that the Ferara marking was always present, especially for blades that were purely made for export- In any case, at the very least, I think we can all agree the sword is period and not a reworking or a fake. Soon to have it in my grasp! Can't wait! Note that Ulfberth's pictured sword is an English officer's type dating late 17th/early 18th c. Attached Images Last edited by M ELEY; 19th December 2019 at 09:03 AM. Reason: editing

23rd January 2021, 06:55 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,077	I added a red buffer cloth to the basket as it would have had back in the day. This sword is still the gem in my collection; untampered with, intact and dating to the period of Culloden- 1730-40's. I've done some research on the king's heads as far as the Wundes family. This particular mark found on mine has several cousins that can be seen in "Culloden: The Swords and the Sorrows". Many of the German blades had the king's heads interspersed with 'Andrea Ferrera', some just have the name, while others have just the heads. It was noted that the Weyersburg smiths began using the king's head stamps in later (second half 18th c.) on their blades, but their stamp is very different from the earlier marks. Some of the blades pictured in that reference (taken from swords at the museum in Glascow) had very weak markings of the Fererra name, which makes me wonder if mine might have had that marking, but it got polished off over time. In any case, a great survivor of the time period! Attached Images

19th December 2019, 05:22 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,796	Hi Mark Thank you for posting this and the link! It is good to see this thread from 2016 which I honestly had forgotten about. From this it is clear what a learning curve there is in the study of arms, and why I always say of myself, while I have 'studied' (obsessed) with swords for nearly five decades, I still truly feel effectively a student as I NEVER stop learning. This interesting example posted by Ulfberth is indeed an English type of about 1740s+. Here the 'S' element (with scrolls) is seen as simply structural without specific symbolism, and aesthetically applied. Rereading my notes from 2016, the kings head seems to have been 'acquired' by Weyersberg c. 1770s. As I have held, while German blade makers were well known to spuriously use key Spanish marks and wording/names, with some Italian, it does not seem they used those of their peers. Here I would note that terms like 'always' or 'never' must be considered with profound caveat, as of course there were bound to be exceptions. In my view, the 'kings heads' marking convention of the Wundes 'dynasty' does appear to have had variations, and with that, the 'four' heads pattern seems to be the case. While the interpolation of the popular ANDREA FERARA in my estimation would suggest added imbuement to the mystique of the already notable Wundes mark. It seems that the four heads, and with this famed name exist in more abundance than I had been aware, but I still contend that it was not a standard, but a known variation. These kinds of anomalies only add to the mystique and inherent charm of these amazing Scottish swords! I cant wait for you to get it too Cap'n!!!!

19th December 2019, 08:51 PM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,077	Hello Jim and thanks for your help on this intriguing piece! Still not in hand, but I'm expecting it today or perhaps tomorrow (Christmas delays and all). I still feel the chronological time period of pre-Cullodan to be accurate based on the hilt patterning, S-bar ( which seems to have faded out or at least drastically changed mid century, etc). The Weyersberg marking king's head is very distinct, is bearded and looking straight ahead (not at an angle as these king's heads are, with even a side profile of the nose being apparent). The Weyersburg stamp also lacks the shoulders (?), torso (?) or whatnot of the king's head stamp on mine. It seems we just don't have enough information on the various stamps of the Wundes "clan", nor their metamorphosis over time. Spurious mark? Perhaps, or the real deal as yet not pinned down. In any case, I feel that our little friend here is smack dab in the middle of the two Rebellions, which is fine with me! Once in hand, I will carefully study the blade to see if there are any traces of other markings. Thanks again to all viewers and comments... Mark