Persian inscription- Late 18th century Shamshir

ariel · 2nd December 2019, 12:30 AM

To complicate things even further, Shamshir in Persia can be curved or straight, and in Afghanistan, pulwar and Central Asian pseudoshashkas are all shamshirs in local parlance. The bottom line, in Farsi Shamshir was a generic name for a sword, despite literal translation as lion’s tooth, or claw, or tail, depending on the imagination of the author and his preference for different parts of animal anatomy. Same with kilij in Turkish: straight, curved , recurved.

An amusing comment of Elgood on a particular short-bladed dagger stated that for Muslim it would be Khagda, but for a Hindu it would be Ch’hurri. Bichwa and Baku fall into the same bag.

In short, in the great majority of cases the names of different bladed weapons all were called one of the two: sword or knife, long or short. Rational, practical and 100% ethnically determined.

Jens Nordlunde · 2nd December 2019, 03:41 PM

Yes Marius, I too would regard mine as a tulwar:-) - and maybe add, with an Indian blade.

Swords with a tulwar hilt are mostly/always called a tulwar, regardless if the blade is Persian, European, a copy of an European blade or an Indian blade. However, a kukri with a tulwar hilt is not a tulwar, but a kukri with a tulwar hilt. In this case we, suddenly, regard the blade as the most important.

ariel · 2nd December 2019, 05:44 PM

Polish school of arms history and identification places hilts as a defining feature ( determines ethnicity and manner of fencing).
Other schools and individuals emphasize blades as the working part of the weapon.
There is no unified agreement whether this one should be called tulwar with shamshir blade or shamshir with tulwar blade.

The final word would unquestionably belong to the owner: if Muslim, he would likely use the latter variant, if Hindu - the former one. Both would be absolutely correct.

South Indians used straight European blades and called the final creation Firanghi. The same sword with Indian blade would be called Dhup in Deccan, and Asa Shamshir in North India.

Interesting what did they use for a saber with Indian hilt and British blade or Indian blade with British hilt:-)

Regretfully, the original owners are no longer answering our phone calls or e-mails:-(((

2nd December 2019, 12:30 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	To complicate things even further, Shamshir in Persia can be curved or straight, and in Afghanistan, pulwar and Central Asian pseudoshashkas are all shamshirs in local parlance. The bottom line, in Farsi Shamshir was a generic name for a sword, despite literal translation as lion’s tooth, or claw, or tail, depending on the imagination of the author and his preference for different parts of animal anatomy. Same with kilij in Turkish: straight, curved , recurved. An amusing comment of Elgood on a particular short-bladed dagger stated that for Muslim it would be Khagda, but for a Hindu it would be Ch’hurri. Bichwa and Baku fall into the same bag. In short, in the great majority of cases the names of different bladed weapons all were called one of the two: sword or knife, long or short. Rational, practical and 100% ethnically determined.

2nd December 2019, 03:41 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Yes Marius, I too would regard mine as a tulwar:-) - and maybe add, with an Indian blade. Swords with a tulwar hilt are mostly/always called a tulwar, regardless if the blade is Persian, European, a copy of an European blade or an Indian blade. However, a kukri with a tulwar hilt is not a tulwar, but a kukri with a tulwar hilt. In this case we, suddenly, regard the blade as the most important.

2nd December 2019, 05:44 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Polish school of arms history and identification places hilts as a defining feature ( determines ethnicity and manner of fencing). Other schools and individuals emphasize blades as the working part of the weapon. There is no unified agreement whether this one should be called tulwar with shamshir blade or shamshir with tulwar blade. The final word would unquestionably belong to the owner: if Muslim, he would likely use the latter variant, if Hindu - the former one. Both would be absolutely correct. South Indians used straight European blades and called the final creation Firanghi. The same sword with Indian blade would be called Dhup in Deccan, and Asa Shamshir in North India. Interesting what did they use for a saber with Indian hilt and British blade or Indian blade with British hilt:-) Regretfully, the original owners are no longer answering our phone calls or e-mails:-(((