Bird shaped sword - A question to the Dah experts

athena · 4th May 2006, 03:10 AM

Well, these two don't look like Chinese.

I have a large variation of Chinese arms, but haven't seen such design. Other people, like Japanese also love crane deeply, they may be from other countries.

Justin · 4th May 2006, 11:17 PM

From the pics it looks like the birds have long tails,is that the case? I think if they do they are probably something more unusual ,I dont know of a bird off hand that really resembles the ones on the swords.

Very interesting swords,I hope we can determine where they are from,they do look somewhat dha-like but they also have a lot of features that could be from anywhere.

fearn · 5th May 2006, 04:53 AM

On the side topic of dhas with odd handles, I've seen a dha with a staghorn handle on the web. Does any member have one of these staghorn dhas, or at least pics? The reason I'm asking is that, as I recall, the blade and mounting of the one I saw were similar to the hardware on these bird blades, and it might be useful for a comparison, especially if the staghorn dha had a provenance. Now, if I could only remember where I saw them....

F

Mark · 5th May 2006, 03:02 PM

I immediately thought of the picture in Stone, too. It is such an odd-ball among the other ones he pictures. One thought I had was to contact the Met and ask what they have on that particular sword. As I understand it, most (or all) of Stone's personal collection is there, so that dha might be as well. Of course, Stone was not always right in his attributions.

The blades look like long versions of a type of SEA utility knife (like the one Avner had at Timonium). They were discussed in another thread that I will find in a minute.

*Found it: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2067; the knives are called "meed hnep." Looking at the pair again, it looks to me that the top one in the first picture definitely has a long tail, while the lower one appears to have a short tail. Also, the top has a distinctly curved beak, while the lower is more-or-less straight. So, they might represent different birds - the top a peacock and the bottom a crane. Finally, this would not be the first dha I have seen with a downwardly curved blade and handle:

This one is Burmese, supporting the peacock theory, and there are is one, also in an Oldman catalogue, classified as Burmese, a picture of which I am adding below.*

As for peacock versus heron, the shape of the heads looks more crane-like, with the long beak and bulbous forhead, but I checke out some pictures of peacocks on the net, and its not too much of a stretch. The bodies carved into the scabbard, however, could easily be those of peacock.
http://pinker.wjh.harvard.edu/photos...es/peacock.htm
http://www.gamebird.com/peacock.html (scroll down to the second picture on the right side).

The thing about the peacock is that it is the national symbol of Burma, and of the old monarchy, so there would be more significance to a peacock than to a crane, at least in Burmese culture. I am not aware of either being of any particular significance in either Siamese or Lao culture.

Mark · 5th May 2006, 03:19 PM

By the way, what can you tell us about the blades? Are they tempered, or laminated, or edge hardened? I can't see too much from the photos, but there looks like a hint of either inserted-edge or sandwich construction, or edge tempering, on both.

VANDOO · 5th February 2008, 03:59 PM

LOOKING AT THIS TREAD AGAIN REMINDED ME OF A SIMULAR TYPE OF SWORD. THE JAPANESE HAVE SWORDS SAID TO BE CARRIED BY DOCTORS THESE WERE CARVED IN THE FORM OF VARIOUS TYPES OF ANIMALS THE HANDLE WAS ALWAYS THE HEAD AND THE SCABBARD THE BODY. THEY WERE USUALLY THE SIZE OF THE SHORTER JAPANESE SWORD OR PERHAPS A BIT SHORTER. I HAVE SEEN DRAGONS AND FISH REPRESENTED AND PERHAPS BIRDS SO THIS SWORD COULD BE ONE CARRIED BY SOME SPECIFIC PROFESSION ,DOCTORS FOR INSTANCE IN BURMA OR ONE OF THE OTHER COUNTRYS. THE SWORD WOULD IDENTIFY THE PERSONS PROFESSION AND COULD BE LEGALLY CARRIED EVEN THOUGH HE WAS NOT SAMURAI AS IT WAS IN JAPAN.

Jens Nordlunde · 5th February 2008, 04:06 PM

Maybe the MET can help, as most, if not all, of the Stone collection went into this museum.

5th May 2006, 03:02 PM	#4
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	I immediately thought of the picture in Stone, too. It is such an odd-ball among the other ones he pictures. One thought I had was to contact the Met and ask what they have on that particular sword. As I understand it, most (or all) of Stone's personal collection is there, so that dha might be as well. Of course, Stone was not always right in his attributions. The blades look like long versions of a type of SEA utility knife (like the one Avner had at Timonium). They were discussed in another thread that I will find in a minute. Found it: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2067; the knives are called "meed hnep." Looking at the pair again, it looks to me that the top one in the first picture definitely has a long tail, while the lower one appears to have a short tail. Also, the top has a distinctly curved beak, while the lower is more-or-less straight. So, they might represent different birds - the top a peacock and the bottom a crane. Finally, this would not be the first dha I have seen with a downwardly curved blade and handle: This one is Burmese, supporting the peacock theory, and there are is one, also in an Oldman catalogue, classified as Burmese, a picture of which I am adding below. As for peacock versus heron, the shape of the heads looks more crane-like, with the long beak and bulbous forhead, but I checke out some pictures of peacocks on the net, and its not too much of a stretch. The bodies carved into the scabbard, however, could easily be those of peacock. http://pinker.wjh.harvard.edu/photos...es/peacock.htm http://www.gamebird.com/peacock.html (scroll down to the second picture on the right side). The thing about the peacock is that it is the national symbol of Burma, and of the old monarchy, so there would be more significance to a peacock than to a crane, at least in Burmese culture. I am not aware of either being of any particular significance in either Siamese or Lao culture. Attached Images Last edited by Mark Bowditch; 5th May 2006 at 03:15 PM. Reason: Added a link to the meed hnep thread, and some more observations.

5th February 2008, 03:59 PM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	LOOKING AT THIS TREAD AGAIN REMINDED ME OF A SIMULAR TYPE OF SWORD. THE JAPANESE HAVE SWORDS SAID TO BE CARRIED BY DOCTORS THESE WERE CARVED IN THE FORM OF VARIOUS TYPES OF ANIMALS THE HANDLE WAS ALWAYS THE HEAD AND THE SCABBARD THE BODY. THEY WERE USUALLY THE SIZE OF THE SHORTER JAPANESE SWORD OR PERHAPS A BIT SHORTER. I HAVE SEEN DRAGONS AND FISH REPRESENTED AND PERHAPS BIRDS SO THIS SWORD COULD BE ONE CARRIED BY SOME SPECIFIC PROFESSION ,DOCTORS FOR INSTANCE IN BURMA OR ONE OF THE OTHER COUNTRYS. THE SWORD WOULD IDENTIFY THE PERSONS PROFESSION AND COULD BE LEGALLY CARRIED EVEN THOUGH HE WAS NOT SAMURAI AS IT WAS IN JAPAN. Last edited by VANDOO; 5th February 2008 at 06:08 PM.

4th May 2006, 03:10 AM	#1
athena Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 42	Well, these two don't look like Chinese. I have a large variation of Chinese arms, but haven't seen such design. Other people, like Japanese also love crane deeply, they may be from other countries.

4th May 2006, 11:17 PM	#2
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 182	From the pics it looks like the birds have long tails,is that the case? I think if they do they are probably something more unusual ,I dont know of a bird off hand that really resembles the ones on the swords. Very interesting swords,I hope we can determine where they are from,they do look somewhat dha-like but they also have a lot of features that could be from anywhere.

5th May 2006, 04:53 AM	#3
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	On the side topic of dhas with odd handles, I've seen a dha with a staghorn handle on the web. Does any member have one of these staghorn dhas, or at least pics? The reason I'm asking is that, as I recall, the blade and mounting of the one I saw were similar to the hardware on these bird blades, and it might be useful for a comparison, especially if the staghorn dha had a provenance. Now, if I could only remember where I saw them.... F

5th May 2006, 03:19 PM	#5
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	By the way, what can you tell us about the blades? Are they tempered, or laminated, or edge hardened? I can't see too much from the photos, but there looks like a hint of either inserted-edge or sandwich construction, or edge tempering, on both.

5th February 2008, 04:06 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Maybe the MET can help, as most, if not all, of the Stone collection went into this museum.