Cut steel decorations on Indian arms

mahratt · 11th November 2019, 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

19th c is reasonnable, look at this one in the British museums
Acquired by King Edward VII, when Prince of Wales, during his tour of India in 1875-76.
You have a nice katar by the way

Thank you!
The dating of my кatar with the 19th century, and not with the 18th century, does not bother me. I am not trying to find "very old unique rarities"

mahratt · 11th November 2019, 08:49 AM

An interesting Indian bazuband from the collection of my friend.

Jens Nordlunde · 11th November 2019, 04:34 PM

Its a very nice bazuband.
I have often wondered how they, with the primitive tools they had, were able to make these steel cuttings.

For those of you who like riddles. Have a look at the pata I showed. There are a lot of peacocks at the edge of the gauntlet. If you dont see them, look for how the peacocks were shown in the 16th to 17th century.

Silver John · 17th November 2019, 05:09 PM

Encouraged by Jens on a separate thread, I have decided to post the only Indian piece I own with cut steel decoration.

A modest tulwar, sadly missing the pommel disc. The blade is a decent size; 77cm long and the piece weighs 670grams, but the handle is absolutely tiny, with only 7cm of room for the hand.

I would be very interested in any comments.

Jens Nordlunde · 17th November 2019, 05:40 PM

Silver John, thank you very much for posting:-).

Is the hilt silver plated - or was it?
Its interesting to think of, how much this hilt have been used to be worn like it is. A grip of the size of 7 cm does not surprise me, as I think most grips are about this size. The missing disc is interesting, but have relatively often been seen.
Intersting blade, which could be European, or maybe an Indian copy, as these stamps were copied a lot in India.

kronckew · 17th November 2019, 06:32 PM

We see the removed disks quite often, I suspect they get removed deliberately by owners who either have larger hands or prefer a more western sabre cutting style.

ariel · 17th November 2019, 07:14 PM

That was Tirri’s idea.
Yes, from time to time we do see Tulwars with no pommel disk. But we see many, many more with semi-attached wobbly disks, some even with signs of attempted brazing. There is no way to exclude deliberate removal of disks from time to time, but IMHO in the majority of cases it was an unintended loss due to forging defect/poor craftsmanship.

Silver John · 18th November 2019, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Is the hilt silver plated - or was it?

It’s hard to tell, the entire handle was a rusty brown when I bought it. I have rubbed it down with 000 wire wool as mineral oil which has revealed a few tiny flecks of gold at the edge of one of the motiefs, but no obvious silver yet. I still have some cleaning to do, so I might find some yet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Its interesting to think of, how much this hilt have been used to be worn like it is.

Indeed! And I photographed the “good” side, the other is far more worn. It’s almost impossible to see in the picture, but the same pattern that is near the cross guard is also on the palm swell of the handle, just much more faint. An arrangement of flowers in rows, 1,2,3,2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Intersting blade, which could be European, or maybe an Indian copy, as these stamps were copied a lot in India.

I had wondered about that. The blade has Indian features like the stepped spine and large ricasso. I had hoped to reveal a pattern in the blade by etching it, but my initial test panel did not reveal anything at all. Perhaps it is European and so no pattern is to be found?, or perhaps I just need to use a different acid for etching.

Many thanks for the comments!

Nihl · 20th November 2019, 05:33 AM

Just to add to the examples in this thread, here are three pieces I have with cut steel decoration; a pata and bara jamdadu, both from the 17th century, and an early 19th century pata. All of them have floral/vegetal decoration of some sort, though the 19th c pata is quite an exception as it has both a zoomorphic "face" as well as a makara on either side of the gauntlet. The bara jamdadu also probably has a stylized pair of peacocks on it somewhere

11th November 2019, 08:49 AM	#2
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	An interesting Indian bazuband from the collection of my friend. Attached Images

11th November 2019, 04:34 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Its a very nice bazuband. I have often wondered how they, with the primitive tools they had, were able to make these steel cuttings. For those of you who like riddles. Have a look at the pata I showed. There are a lot of peacocks at the edge of the gauntlet. If you dont see them, look for how the peacocks were shown in the 16th to 17th century. Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 11th November 2019 at 05:07 PM.

17th November 2019, 05:09 PM	#4
Silver John Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 31	Encouraged by Jens on a separate thread, I have decided to post the only Indian piece I own with cut steel decoration. A modest tulwar, sadly missing the pommel disc. The blade is a decent size; 77cm long and the piece weighs 670grams, but the handle is absolutely tiny, with only 7cm of room for the hand. I would be very interested in any comments. Attached Images

17th November 2019, 07:14 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	That was Tirri’s idea. Yes, from time to time we do see Tulwars with no pommel disk. But we see many, many more with semi-attached wobbly disks, some even with signs of attempted brazing. There is no way to exclude deliberate removal of disks from time to time, but IMHO in the majority of cases it was an unintended loss due to forging defect/poor craftsmanship. Last edited by ariel; 17th November 2019 at 07:26 PM.

20th November 2019, 05:33 AM	#9
Nihl Member Join Date: Feb 2018 Posts: 90	Just to add to the examples in this thread, here are three pieces I have with cut steel decoration; a pata and bara jamdadu, both from the 17th century, and an early 19th century pata. All of them have floral/vegetal decoration of some sort, though the 19th c pata is quite an exception as it has both a zoomorphic "face" as well as a makara on either side of the gauntlet. The bara jamdadu also probably has a stylized pair of peacocks on it somewhere Attached Images

17th November 2019, 05:40 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Silver John, thank you very much for posting:-). Is the hilt silver plated - or was it? Its interesting to think of, how much this hilt have been used to be worn like it is. A grip of the size of 7 cm does not surprise me, as I think most grips are about this size. The missing disc is interesting, but have relatively often been seen. Intersting blade, which could be European, or maybe an Indian copy, as these stamps were copied a lot in India.

17th November 2019, 06:32 PM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,259	We see the removed disks quite often, I suspect they get removed deliberately by owners who either have larger hands or prefer a more western sabre cutting style.