Pirate sword-cutlass

francantolin · 3rd November 2019, 08:23 AM

Hello,

Thank you all for your precious comments and pictures !!

I found this picture of a janissary soldier going to the Preveza battle with a look-like sword.
The ottoman sea chief was Kheir-Eddine Barberousse,
here an old 19th orientalist drawing of him with the same sword shape
( dont' really look like Barberousse but that's the name of the old stamp

)

Looking for old painting and engravings about janissaries,
I was surprised to see no more armed with yatagan swords,
( yatagans were present since the 16th century I read )

At the same time, it's so difficult / impossible to find old ottoman scimitar swords that are not kilij .

All lost-damaged ?
Or more an orientalist fantasy-representation of the 19th century painters as told before ?...

Kind regards

francantolin · 3rd November 2019, 10:46 AM

Sorry, my english is not too good !

I mean:
Why is it today so difficult to find old ottoman- oriental scimitar-cutlass as described on the pictures while we can find quite ''easily'' really old kilij or yatagans ?

ariel · 3rd November 2019, 11:41 AM

Your first image is not “ yet another one”: it is a yet another re- drawing of one of the two images shown in the Post #7 . They are 3 variants of the same image, and which one was the original source is a mystery not worth solving.

The astonishing scarcity of physical representations of this pattern suggests IMHO that they did not exist in reality. Till now we see similar “ oriental scimitars” only in theatrical objects. I think the Sotheby’s one is from the same opera:-)

Orientalists did not just depict the Orient; they have created one for the multitudes of homebound Europeans. This was one of the very few correct observations of Edward Said.

Ren Ren · 3rd November 2019, 12:13 PM

Perhaps the roots of this tradition make sense to look for in the art of the Renaissance. Antonio del Pollaiuolo "The Battle of the Naked Men" (about 1465–1475)

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 4th November 2019, 11:52 AM

For more artwork and stimulating discussion please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...9&page=1&pp=30
For example below ~

ariel · 4th November 2019, 12:14 PM

Ren Ren’s illustration may be quite revealing: European artists might have used their own falchions/stortas as a model for exotic Turkish swords.
Didn’t even have to spend money for a trip to Constantinople :-)

3rd November 2019, 08:23 AM	#1
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 911	Hello, Thank you all for your precious comments and pictures !! I found this picture of a janissary soldier going to the Preveza battle with a look-like sword. The ottoman sea chief was Kheir-Eddine Barberousse, here an old 19th orientalist drawing of him with the same sword shape ( dont' really look like Barberousse but that's the name of the old stamp ) Looking for old painting and engravings about janissaries, I was surprised to see no more armed with yatagan swords, ( yatagans were present since the 16th century I read ) At the same time, it's so difficult / impossible to find old ottoman scimitar swords that are not kilij . All lost-damaged ? Or more an orientalist fantasy-representation of the 19th century painters as told before ?... Kind regards Attached Images

3rd November 2019, 12:13 PM	#4
Ren Ren Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Russia, Moscow Posts: 379	Perhaps the roots of this tradition make sense to look for in the art of the Renaissance. Antonio del Pollaiuolo "The Battle of the Naked Men" (about 1465–1475) Attached Images

4th November 2019, 11:52 AM	#5
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	For more artwork and stimulating discussion please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...9&page=1&pp=30 For example below ~ Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 4th November 2019 at 12:15 PM.

3rd November 2019, 10:46 AM	#2
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 911	Sorry, my english is not too good ! I mean: Why is it today so difficult to find old ottoman- oriental scimitar-cutlass as described on the pictures while we can find quite ''easily'' really old kilij or yatagans ?

3rd November 2019, 11:41 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Your first image is not “ yet another one”: it is a yet another re- drawing of one of the two images shown in the Post #7 . They are 3 variants of the same image, and which one was the original source is a mystery not worth solving. The astonishing scarcity of physical representations of this pattern suggests IMHO that they did not exist in reality. Till now we see similar “ oriental scimitars” only in theatrical objects. I think the Sotheby’s one is from the same opera:-) Orientalists did not just depict the Orient; they have created one for the multitudes of homebound Europeans. This was one of the very few correct observations of Edward Said.

4th November 2019, 12:14 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Ren Ren’s illustration may be quite revealing: European artists might have used their own falchions/stortas as a model for exotic Turkish swords. Didn’t even have to spend money for a trip to Constantinople :-)