18th Century Zoomporhic Shamshir

vilhelmsson · 21st October 2019, 10:39 PM

Ariel and Ibrahiim,

You both have a good eye, or at least good intuition. I received a few things after this that I was a bit more excited about, and I forgot about my initial thoughts on looking at it. The blade does look like on wootz on close examination in some parts.

I think I'll have to polish and etch a small portion, soon.

Assad Ullah style might be too optimistic, and this cartouche seems to be more angular and less round than Assad Ullah's.

The ears are not uncomfortable in the hand; they taper well. I didn't provide a good shot of the finials, but I think they are supposed to look like the bottom half of an elephant's open mouth. At least that was my impression when I saw them in person. The workmanship on the hilt is not going to make it into the next edition of Hindu Arms and Ritual!

I think I need to take another look at how the hilt is assembled and to what extent it is original.

mariusgmioc · 21st October 2019, 11:10 PM

Indian shamshir blades rarely present the characteristic Indian ricasso. That is a characteristic of the tulwar blades. However, this blade a ppears to have a rudimentary Indian ricasso.

In my oppinion this is an Indian, not Persian blade.

Why?! It is wider at the ricasso than the typical Persian blade.
Connected to the wider ricasso is the more tapering of the blade towards the tip.

So, to my eyes, this looks like a transition blade between a classic shamshir shape and that of a tulwar.

Also the location of the inscriptions appears to be lower, more towards the tip, and is not of typical Persian shape.

With regards to the hilt, I believe it to be a more recent, very poor, touristy, replacement. Late 19th century, but most likely early 20th...

Why?! The blade is not hilted properly. The ricasso does not go up inside the hilt, but it ends up right before the hilt, meaning that at the joint zone the blade is only supported by the narrow tang and very prone to breakage. So, in the condition it is fit now, this blade cannot serve as a fighting weapon.

My two cents...

vilhelmsson · 21st October 2019, 11:42 PM

Thank you Marius. And I have your etching guide bookmarked.

I must shamefully admit that the poor hilt is what caught my touristy eye

Do you have any thoughts on whether it was intended for domestic Indian tourists versus international tourists? I think we're far enough removed from the early 20th century that this isn't self-evident from it being offered for auction in Europe.

For the price I paid, I'm satisfied with an older, wootzy blade and a late kitschy (at best) hilt.

Your two cents shall be deposited in an interest bearing account of knowledge! In the meantime, I will try not to get into any sword fights. With this sword.

mariusgmioc · 22nd October 2019, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vilhelmsson

Thank you Marius. And I have your etching guide bookmarked.

I must shamefully admit that the poor hilt is what caught my touristy eye

Do you have any thoughts on whether it was intended for domestic Indian tourists versus international tourists? I think we're far enough removed from the early 20th century that this isn't self-evident from it being offered for auction in Europe.

For the price I paid, I'm satisfied with an older, wootzy blade and a late kitschy (at best) hilt.

Your two cents shall be deposited in an interest bearing account of knowledge! In the meantime, I will try not to get into any sword fights. With this sword.

When I said "touristy" I didn't necessarilly mean for tourists. What I had in mind was a lower quality of workmanship hilt that is not suitable for real use. Whether it was meant for international collectors or just to make the sword look complete for display in an Indian house, I cannot say.

Kubur · 22nd October 2019, 08:31 AM

i don't like to be negative with any forum member.
But here there is no discussion, the hilt is a touristic late stuff.
With the ears nailed and the trump in the air!
With the camel bone i would be tempted to put this art work in the chicken street of Kabul. The blade looks good.
If the blade is good, throw the hilt to the bin and buy a nice tulwar or pulwar hilt...

mahratt · 22nd October 2019, 08:53 AM

This shamshir has been put up at one famous auction several times over the past two or three years

I think it caused potential buyers a lot of questions if they didn’t buy it for a long time ....

mariusgmioc · 22nd October 2019, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

I think it caused potential buyers a lot of questions if they didn’t buy it for a long time ....

Not surprisingly!

From your photos, it appears that the blade has indeed some rudimentary Indian ricasso.

ariel · 22nd October 2019, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

.
.... trump in the air!

Only when he is flying Airforce 1:-)

The interesting and potentially valuable part is the blade.
If it is wootz-y, then the money was well spent.
The handle could have been attached yesterday or 200 years ago: they were easy to change and virtually all really old Indian swords are on their second or fourth.

vilhelmsson · 22nd October 2019, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

i don't like to be negative with any forum member.
But here there is no discussion, the hilt is a touristic late stuff.
With the ears nailed and the trump in the air!
With the camel bone i would be tempted to put this art work in the chicken street of Kabul. The blade looks good.
If the blade is good, throw the hilt to the bin and buy a nice tulwar or pulwar hilt...

Well, you guys know what they say about a fool and his money

The challenge for me, of course, is that it's a lot easier to learn about good stuff in books than the cheap looking stuff that would never make it into the books and which is easier to access. The forums are a better place to learn why some inexpensive stuff is crap and why other inexpensive stuff has some redeemable qualities, than spending years accumulating crap before buying something nice and realizing that you've only spent years collecting garbage.

ariel · 22nd October 2019, 09:49 PM

Do not beat yourself up: everybody here went thru the same period. We all have our " walls of shame" ( more precisely boxes in dark rooms).
View it as a price of learning.
On top of that, if the blade is wootz, you got a winner. Changing the handle is simple, and a wootz pulwar will look gorgeous. Locals did it all the time, so you will continue the time-honored tradition:-)

21st October 2019, 11:10 PM	#2
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	Indian shamshir blades rarely present the characteristic Indian ricasso. That is a characteristic of the tulwar blades. However, this blade a ppears to have a rudimentary Indian ricasso. In my oppinion this is an Indian, not Persian blade. Why?! It is wider at the ricasso than the typical Persian blade. Connected to the wider ricasso is the more tapering of the blade towards the tip. So, to my eyes, this looks like a transition blade between a classic shamshir shape and that of a tulwar. Also the location of the inscriptions appears to be lower, more towards the tip, and is not of typical Persian shape. With regards to the hilt, I believe it to be a more recent, very poor, touristy, replacement. Late 19th century, but most likely early 20th... Why?! The blade is not hilted properly. The ricasso does not go up inside the hilt, but it ends up right before the hilt, meaning that at the joint zone the blade is only supported by the narrow tang and very prone to breakage. So, in the condition it is fit now, this blade cannot serve as a fighting weapon. My two cents... Last edited by mariusgmioc; 21st October 2019 at 11:25 PM.

22nd October 2019, 08:53 AM	#6
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	This shamshir has been put up at one famous auction several times over the past two or three years I think it caused potential buyers a lot of questions if they didn’t buy it for a long time .... Attached Images

21st October 2019, 10:39 PM	#1
vilhelmsson Member Join Date: Feb 2019 Location: Bay Area Posts: 57	Ariel and Ibrahiim, You both have a good eye, or at least good intuition. I received a few things after this that I was a bit more excited about, and I forgot about my initial thoughts on looking at it. The blade does look like on wootz on close examination in some parts. I think I'll have to polish and etch a small portion, soon. Assad Ullah style might be too optimistic, and this cartouche seems to be more angular and less round than Assad Ullah's. The ears are not uncomfortable in the hand; they taper well. I didn't provide a good shot of the finials, but I think they are supposed to look like the bottom half of an elephant's open mouth. At least that was my impression when I saw them in person. The workmanship on the hilt is not going to make it into the next edition of Hindu Arms and Ritual! I think I need to take another look at how the hilt is assembled and to what extent it is original.

21st October 2019, 11:42 PM	#3
vilhelmsson Member Join Date: Feb 2019 Location: Bay Area Posts: 57	Thank you Marius. And I have your etching guide bookmarked. I must shamefully admit that the poor hilt is what caught my touristy eye Do you have any thoughts on whether it was intended for domestic Indian tourists versus international tourists? I think we're far enough removed from the early 20th century that this isn't self-evident from it being offered for auction in Europe. For the price I paid, I'm satisfied with an older, wootzy blade and a late kitschy (at best) hilt. Your two cents shall be deposited in an interest bearing account of knowledge! In the meantime, I will try not to get into any sword fights. With this sword.

22nd October 2019, 08:31 AM	#5
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	i don't like to be negative with any forum member. But here there is no discussion, the hilt is a touristic late stuff. With the ears nailed and the trump in the air! With the camel bone i would be tempted to put this art work in the chicken street of Kabul. The blade looks good. If the blade is good, throw the hilt to the bin and buy a nice tulwar or pulwar hilt...

22nd October 2019, 09:49 PM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Do not beat yourself up: everybody here went thru the same period. We all have our " walls of shame" ( more precisely boxes in dark rooms). View it as a price of learning. On top of that, if the blade is wootz, you got a winner. Changing the handle is simple, and a wootz pulwar will look gorgeous. Locals did it all the time, so you will continue the time-honored tradition:-)