Transitional, Victorian, Other?

Jim McDougall · 15th October 2019, 06:26 PM

It seems well known that alphabetic characters are in themselves symbols, and it is often known that they are so well recognized that it is easily presumed that a symbol represents a given 'letter'. It would seem obvious that the association Udo drew to SOME of the marks used by Toledo smiths (as seen in the names paired with the SYMBOLS noted which RESEMBLE letter A). intended to show the SIMILARITY (as he specified) to these marks.
That the Toledo smiths did not always use their own initials as punzone marks has seemed pretty well known to those of us who have studied markings for some time.

My comment to Udo was in appreciation of his observant catch in recognizing these marks, and using the Toledo examples as illustration. I had seen the mark on the sword we are discussing, crudely executed and almost resembling an oriental 'chop'. My analogy is meant only visually, and I am not suggesting this represents a Chinese marking. It was intended much as Udo's entry, an analogy.

The majuscule LETTER A in medieval and later alphabets often is seen in a kind of labarum structure with the cross bar atop , and the central bar having a V appearing drop down as seen on these 'Toledo' marks. Various references show these letters A in different contexts in European markings, and in some cases, the 'A' was thought to indicate Augsburg.

As seen in the image of the well flourished 'A' the structure is similar to those used in Toledo, and curiously there is a fluer de lis, which I would point out was NOT exclusively French, but known in Spain and Italy as well as even Germany. Therefore this 'A' cannot be construed as 'French' alone

As for the position of the markings on Glen's blade, as he has aptly observed, these are not placed in the proper upright position typically seen in placement of such devices on blades.

The blade seems 19th c. to me, but I emphasize 'seems' as in perhaps some officers swords. The dramatic point does not seem in character.
I do not personally consider this a 'decorator' but perhaps a court or dress type accoutrement which may be viable as a weapon, but that remains to be seen.

I had thought of the pierced bilobate guard only in the more elaborate
Pappenheimer' hilts of the 17th c., however these type pierced guards were also in small sword epees as seen in the image.

Jury's still out

Hotspur · 15th October 2019, 06:56 PM

In passing, Juan Perez writes "nice sword" and of seeing nothing particularly Spanish about it, and suggests the ducal crowns might point to Germany or Austria.

All of a sudden I'm going in six directions that briefly take me to the 1662 copper riots in Moscow. It was not the Russian marriage to a duke I was looking for though and found a castle in that Bavarian duchy coat of arms. Winding up perhaps not so strangely looking at schloss Hirschberg of Eichstätt. The castle burned in a lightning storm in 1632, only (from a German wiki) "Only 1670 to 1729, the castle was partly rebuilt, partly renewed." and what I'd like to see is this "A votive picture of the caretaker Lorenz von Helmstadt, which today hangs on the second floor of the staircase, conveys a picture of the destroyed structure."

Could it have been a sword of homage done at some point? I have come across such period swords relating the passing of a general (the name escapes me, Hanoverian iirc) in the 18th century.

I'll hold on more thought until it arrives.

Cheers
GC

Dang, I did not save the pictures, it was a sword made in homage for (etched to) Friedrich II Landgraf of Hesse-Kassel a dandy slotted hilt but I digress

Here was another blade etched to him. Again a sidebar.

Victrix · 15th October 2019, 09:34 PM

The upper quillon seems to be twisted sideways which must be a clue to its origins? The legs don’t seem to meet at the top bar in the majescule A.

fernando · 16th October 2019, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotspur

... In passing, Juan Perez writes "nice sword" and of seeing nothing particularly Spanish about it, and suggests the ducal crowns might point to Germany or Austria...

To be precise, if i dare, this would be, not a ducal coronet (crowns are different) but, one of a less ranked noble. Also the construction facade depicted could be that of a palace and not of a castle ... in theory.
It could be that the reason for all these features, 'strange' mark and all, is one of significant meaning. Why all those are pointing towards the 'wrong' side of the blade; client's imposition ... or the engraver not being professionally sword orientated

.

Hotspur · 16th October 2019, 01:45 PM

Pick one

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_(heraldry)

https://www.idtg.org/archive/784-cre...s-in-heraldry/

If someone has a better list, please share.

Cheers
GC

fernando · 16th October 2019, 01:54 PM

THIS IS the one i previously consulted

:

.

Hotspur · 16th October 2019, 03:59 PM

Thanks Fernando

As it lacks any indication of jewels, should we should be looking at a loyalist crown/coronet?

The building could certainly be linked to a location. My trail to Bavaria is probably presumptuous but was an interesting bit of reading yesterday.

Could the A really be an M?

Cheers
GC

fernando · 16th October 2019, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotspur

... As it lacks any indication of jewels, should we be looking at a loyalist crown/coronet?

I am afraid i don't know that much, Glen. In any case, precise rank will depend on which country, i would say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotspur

The building could certainly be linked to a location...

Strong possibility alright.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotspur

Could the A really be an M?...

Or even no letter at all ?

fernando · 15th October 2019, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It seems well known that alphabetic characters are in themselves symbols,

Dearest Jim, i will act as if you didn't drop my knowledge to even lower than what it really is. Definitely this is not your 'symbolic' style, nor are we too old to have start losing our discernment

.
I will not digest possibilities based on esoterica, but do not avoid flying on plausible imagination.
What i figure to have a sense in Toledan smith marks within the discussed context, are those relative to the Toledo (guild) name, namely the upper bar for T for TOLEDO upon the 'said to be' letter A and the appendix L for TOLEDO on the lower right side.

.

Jim McDougall · 16th October 2019, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Dearest Jim, i will act as if you didn't drop my knowledge to even lower than what it really is. Definitely this is not your 'symbolic' style, nor are we too old to have start losing our discernment

.
I will not digest possibilities based on esoterica, but do not avoid flying on plausible imagination.
What i figure to have a sense in Toledan smith marks within the discussed context, are those relative to the Toledo (guild) name, namely the upper bar for T for TOLEDO upon the 'said to be' letter A and the appendix L for TOLEDO on the lower right side.

.

I have no idea what this means, but to get to the point I was making, which was that Udo drew a relatively free association comparison of some of the Toledo makers marks ( in Palomares) with the crude device on the OP blade here. In that perspective, there is a marked similarity between the two.

It seems that these crowned devices on either sides of the blade are meant to allude to either earlier makers marks or heraldic devices or both, but as they are added to a sword which does not as yet have supported context, it is hard to determine what they represent .

Since the comparison was made to suggest similarity to Toledo type markings, whether the Toledo mark noted was a letter or interpretation of another device, symbol or image is not necessarily important . It was meant only as an illustration to show similarity. It is however interesting in the notation that Toledo smiths used letters apparently in symbolism outside their normal alphabetic scope. Therefore, though some makers used letters matching their name, many did not so the letters had other meaning......I believe this is what we are both saying.

I agree, the esoterica involved in discussing those circumstances are far out of the scope of this discussion.

As Glen has well pointed out, these crudely applied markings on the OP blade appear to have been added to add character to the sword, and would appear to be artistic interpretations of classical heraldic or possibly makers symbols, or both.
As we cannot know what the artist was intending in these apparently contrived markings, we cannot say what they in fact represent, and suggestions are speculative. Still it is interesting to try to estimate what may be at hand, and discussion is good.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 17th October 2019, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I have no idea what this means, but to get to the point I was making, which was that Udo drew a relatively free association comparison of some of the Toledo makers marks ( in Palomares) with the crude device on the OP blade here. In that perspective, there is a marked similarity between the two.

It seems that these crowned devices on either sides of the blade are meant to allude to either earlier makers marks or heraldic devices or both, but as they are added to a sword which does not as yet have supported context, it is hard to determine what they represent .

Since the comparison was made to suggest similarity to Toledo type markings, whether the Toledo mark noted was a letter or interpretation of another device, symbol or image is not necessarily important . It was meant only as an illustration to show similarity. It is however interesting in the notation that Toledo smiths used letters apparently in symbolism outside their normal alphabetic scope. Therefore, though some makers used letters matching their name, many did not so the letters had other meaning......I believe this is what we are both saying.

I agree, the esoterica involved in discussing those circumstances are far out of the scope of this discussion.

As Glen has well pointed out, these crudely applied markings on the OP blade appear to have been added to add character to the sword, and would appear to be artistic interpretations of classical heraldic or possibly makers symbols, or both.
As we cannot know what the artist was intending in these apparently contrived markings, we cannot say what they in fact represent, and suggestions are speculative. Still it is interesting to try to estimate what may be at hand, and discussion is good.

Excellent observation Jim and I would infuse https://www.bing.com/search?q=THE+MA...ESR4N&pc=EUPP_ into the general mix here in terms of decorative style in the motif...noting that the Majescule A does not carry the horizontal line under the V shaped crossbar thus may not be Swiss ...Augsberg is a strong contender but so is reproduction in Gothic style as a sword of the 19th Century. After all what was the question at #1 ?

TRANSITIONAL VICTORIAN OR OTHER ?

Jim McDougall · 17th October 2019, 04:34 PM

Thank you for the notes Ibrahiim, , and the majuscule A is primarily a point of reference for what this curiously applied marking is TAKEN from. This sword appears to be a soundly intended sword, but made in representation of earlier forms in a 'historismus' sense (in my opinion).
The markings seem to be a mélange of heraldic devices which are added to add a classic character, but in a manner outside the conventions of typical blade decoration.

As the sword has not yet arrived with Glen, this is based only on photos and hypothetical supposition, and the markings are essentially anybody's guess as they do not (as far as known) have context to properly evaluate them.
As the sword itself is a 'representation' it is hard to imagine the exact models or inspirations for its elements, and of course 'markings'.

As I mentioned earlier, Glen is known for his keen eye in observing weapons, and it will be interesting to have his physical examination of the sword itself at hand. His 'curiosity' (as he describes) is seldom without plausible purpose.

Hotspur · 17th October 2019, 04:56 PM

So, some first impressions with the sword in hand. No way I would suspect it to be a Victorian or later attempt. The hilt is comprised (as I suspected) as several individual pieces, joined and peened. The castings of the writhen elements actually quite delicate, with the grip sounding as not too hollow a shell. Speaking only to the hilt, the annelets are large enough to treat as a rapier grip. The grip by itself between the ferrules is 3". Photos in hand to follow.

Now some nitty gritty.

The weight is considerable at 2.5 pounds (spring fish De-liar scale) eek, right? Well, hold on here, mixed dimensions

Blade length is at 33" as shown.
Width at the guard 27 mm
Thickness at the guard 7 mm
A very linear forte distal
Thickness at the pob still 6mm a fighting distance from the guard pob at roughly 4"
The blade (in my mind) shortened from a blade that was likely about 40" long at its original use
Thickness at the point 2.5 mm
The blade has the feel of varnish and the clank of a sword with good spring. Perfectly ovoid lenticular.

Sorry, no spreadsheet. I judge swords as fencible or not. At a pound more than a light magic spadroon, it is still at the range of what a longer rapier might tip 3 lbs or more. Instantly appraised before I opened the USPS priority box, I was under no allusion it would be a box of air, as felt with an epee. I feel it was a marriage sometime before 1700 but folk are welcome to disagree. For me, as with so many, the questions of its history will always be there. My take is someone wanted a weapon, not a decoration.

Pictures and more thoughts to come

Cheers
GC

Jim McDougall · 17th October 2019, 11:45 PM

Thanks Glen, as I indicated, I did not suspect this was a decorator, or at least in later consideration. Photos are always difficult.
The dramatic point is unusual, but would be understandable if the blade is shortened as you say.
These blade devices were probably added later, with unclear association.

A 17th century Walloon with the 'Pappenheimer' pierced bilobate guard plates attached, may well have been the design sought in this one.

15th October 2019, 06:56 PM	#2
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 514	In passing, Juan Perez writes "nice sword" and of seeing nothing particularly Spanish about it, and suggests the ducal crowns might point to Germany or Austria. All of a sudden I'm going in six directions that briefly take me to the 1662 copper riots in Moscow. It was not the Russian marriage to a duke I was looking for though and found a castle in that Bavarian duchy coat of arms. Winding up perhaps not so strangely looking at schloss Hirschberg of Eichstätt. The castle burned in a lightning storm in 1632, only (from a German wiki) "Only 1670 to 1729, the castle was partly rebuilt, partly renewed." and what I'd like to see is this "A votive picture of the caretaker Lorenz von Helmstadt, which today hangs on the second floor of the staircase, conveys a picture of the destroyed structure." Could it have been a sword of homage done at some point? I have come across such period swords relating the passing of a general (the name escapes me, Hanoverian iirc) in the 18th century. I'll hold on more thought until it arrives. Cheers GC Dang, I did not save the pictures, it was a sword made in homage for (etched to) Friedrich II Landgraf of Hesse-Kassel a dandy slotted hilt but I digress Here was another blade etched to him. Again a sidebar. Attached Images Last edited by Hotspur; 15th October 2019 at 07:15 PM.

16th October 2019, 01:54 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	THIS IS the one i previously consulted : . Last edited by fernando; 16th October 2019 at 02:18 PM.

17th October 2019, 11:45 PM	#14
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,296	Thanks Glen, as I indicated, I did not suspect this was a decorator, or at least in later consideration. Photos are always difficult. The dramatic point is unusual, but would be understandable if the blade is shortened as you say. These blade devices were probably added later, with unclear association. A 17th century Walloon with the 'Pappenheimer' pierced bilobate guard plates attached, may well have been the design sought in this one. Attached Images

15th October 2019, 06:26 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,296	It seems well known that alphabetic characters are in themselves symbols, and it is often known that they are so well recognized that it is easily presumed that a symbol represents a given 'letter'. It would seem obvious that the association Udo drew to SOME of the marks used by Toledo smiths (as seen in the names paired with the SYMBOLS noted which RESEMBLE letter A). intended to show the SIMILARITY (as he specified) to these marks. That the Toledo smiths did not always use their own initials as punzone marks has seemed pretty well known to those of us who have studied markings for some time. My comment to Udo was in appreciation of his observant catch in recognizing these marks, and using the Toledo examples as illustration. I had seen the mark on the sword we are discussing, crudely executed and almost resembling an oriental 'chop'. My analogy is meant only visually, and I am not suggesting this represents a Chinese marking. It was intended much as Udo's entry, an analogy. The majuscule LETTER A in medieval and later alphabets often is seen in a kind of labarum structure with the cross bar atop , and the central bar having a V appearing drop down as seen on these 'Toledo' marks. Various references show these letters A in different contexts in European markings, and in some cases, the 'A' was thought to indicate Augsburg. As seen in the image of the well flourished 'A' the structure is similar to those used in Toledo, and curiously there is a fluer de lis, which I would point out was NOT exclusively French, but known in Spain and Italy as well as even Germany. Therefore this 'A' cannot be construed as 'French' alone As for the position of the markings on Glen's blade, as he has aptly observed, these are not placed in the proper upright position typically seen in placement of such devices on blades. The blade seems 19th c. to me, but I emphasize 'seems' as in perhaps some officers swords. The dramatic point does not seem in character. I do not personally consider this a 'decorator' but perhaps a court or dress type accoutrement which may be viable as a weapon, but that remains to be seen. I had thought of the pierced bilobate guard only in the more elaborate Pappenheimer' hilts of the 17th c., however these type pierced guards were also in small sword epees as seen in the image. Jury's still out Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 15th October 2019 at 07:21 PM. Reason: change word to ensure more accurate comment

15th October 2019, 09:34 PM	#3
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	The upper quillon seems to be twisted sideways which must be a clue to its origins? The legs don’t seem to meet at the top bar in the majescule A.

16th October 2019, 01:45 PM	#5
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 514	Pick one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_(heraldry) https://www.idtg.org/archive/784-cre...s-in-heraldry/ If someone has a better list, please share. Cheers GC

16th October 2019, 03:59 PM	#7
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 514	Thanks Fernando As it lacks any indication of jewels, should we should be looking at a loyalist crown/coronet? The building could certainly be linked to a location. My trail to Bavaria is probably presumptuous but was an interesting bit of reading yesterday. Could the A really be an M? Cheers GC

17th October 2019, 04:34 PM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,296	Thank you for the notes Ibrahiim, , and the majuscule A is primarily a point of reference for what this curiously applied marking is TAKEN from. This sword appears to be a soundly intended sword, but made in representation of earlier forms in a 'historismus' sense (in my opinion). The markings seem to be a mélange of heraldic devices which are added to add a classic character, but in a manner outside the conventions of typical blade decoration. As the sword has not yet arrived with Glen, this is based only on photos and hypothetical supposition, and the markings are essentially anybody's guess as they do not (as far as known) have context to properly evaluate them. As the sword itself is a 'representation' it is hard to imagine the exact models or inspirations for its elements, and of course 'markings'. As I mentioned earlier, Glen is known for his keen eye in observing weapons, and it will be interesting to have his physical examination of the sword itself at hand. His 'curiosity' (as he describes) is seldom without plausible purpose.

17th October 2019, 04:56 PM	#13
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 514	So, some first impressions with the sword in hand. No way I would suspect it to be a Victorian or later attempt. The hilt is comprised (as I suspected) as several individual pieces, joined and peened. The castings of the writhen elements actually quite delicate, with the grip sounding as not too hollow a shell. Speaking only to the hilt, the annelets are large enough to treat as a rapier grip. The grip by itself between the ferrules is 3". Photos in hand to follow. Now some nitty gritty. The weight is considerable at 2.5 pounds (spring fish De-liar scale) eek, right? Well, hold on here, mixed dimensions Blade length is at 33" as shown. Width at the guard 27 mm Thickness at the guard 7 mm A very linear forte distal Thickness at the pob still 6mm a fighting distance from the guard pob at roughly 4" The blade (in my mind) shortened from a blade that was likely about 40" long at its original use Thickness at the point 2.5 mm The blade has the feel of varnish and the clank of a sword with good spring. Perfectly ovoid lenticular. Sorry, no spreadsheet. I judge swords as fencible or not. At a pound more than a light magic spadroon, it is still at the range of what a longer rapier might tip 3 lbs or more. Instantly appraised before I opened the USPS priority box, I was under no allusion it would be a box of air, as felt with an epee. I feel it was a marriage sometime before 1700 but folk are welcome to disagree. For me, as with so many, the questions of its history will always be there. My take is someone wanted a weapon, not a decoration. Pictures and more thoughts to come Cheers GC