Tulwar for comment

Jens Nordlunde · 11th October 2019, 03:42 PM

Kubur's blade should be turned like this.

Khanjar1, to make it easier please show the round mark turning the right way.
Hold the sword with the blade pointing up in the air, and take a picture of the mark. Thank you.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 11th October 2019, 05:44 PM

Reference;
A. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_of_Solomon
B. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexagram

The thread is most interesting since it illustrates the latten inlay on six pointed stars most accurately and draws in another style of star with eight points. Of the eight pointer I have absolutely no idea except that there is no distinction between a five and a six pointer thus perhaps they mean the same... but with eight?

On the Six Pointer; There are two main separate meanings ...One in Indian religious form and the other European sense. The one we all know about is The Seal of Solomon but this is misleading since it was used for centuries in Christian form before it was adopted into Jewish . It would seem to support the view that latten inlay being used first in European swords from an ancient European seal of Solomon / star of David design points to the subject blade being European not middle eastern. Note however that ancient Damascus blades had the star form on the blade..confusingly appearing on British military blades even today as a mark of quality or in memory of high quality blades with that insignia. Wilkinson Swords all have that same star on the blade at the throat.

From Reference B Quote"It is not to be wondered at, therefore, that for a long time both the five-pointed and the six-pointed stars were called by one name, the "Seal of Solomon," and that no distinction was made between them. This name is obviously related to the Jewish legend of Solomon's dominion over the spirits, and of his ring with the Ineffable Name engraved on it. These legends expanded and proliferated in a marked fashion during the Middle Ages, among Jews and Arabs alike, but the name, "Seal of Solomon," apparently originated with the Arabs."Unquote.

Please see wikepedia at Reference B on the subject of this sign and the amazing array of different meanings attached in particular the Indian form of the star which is entirely different to the European reason...but may well be why it may have appeared on Indian weapons?

Below an actual ring; .. The Seal of Solomon.

kahnjar1 · 11th October 2019, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Kubur's blade should be turned like this.

Khanjar1, to make it easier please show the round mark turning the right way.
Hold the sword with the blade pointing up in the air, and take a picture of the mark. Thank you.

Hi Jens,
Here are the pics rotated. Yes I see it now...."man in the moon" mark.
Stu

Jens Nordlunde · 12th October 2019, 03:26 PM

Hi Stu - glad it worked:-).

ariel · 12th October 2019, 05:33 PM

I am adding oil to the fire. Two pics with markings from both sides of the blade.

I am purposefully not showing the entire sword to have an opinion unbiased by any extraneous factors. .
When we reach a consensus on those markings I shall do it.

Kubur · 12th October 2019, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I am adding oil to the fire. Two pics with markings from both sides of the blade.

I am purposefully not showing the entire sword to have an opinion unbiased by any extraneous factors. .
When we reach a consensus on those markings I shall do it.

Looks like markings on Yemeni sword...
Of course doesn't mean that the blade is Yemeni...
But deep crude engravings or stampings don't look European to me...

Jim McDougall · 12th October 2019, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Looks like markings on Yemeni sword...
Of course doesn't mean that the blade is Yemeni...
But deep crude engravings or stampings don't look European to me...

I'm with you Kubur, I have seen these kinds of groupings (the stars in V configuration and usually a 'comet' or moon as seen here, on blades in Arab context, often the 'Zanzibar' type nimchas.......used in Yemen.
It is hard to say where these markings were applied, but it does not seem they were European work, but seemingly copied. It has been suggested that some of the entrepots receiving blades for trade networks were duplicating various markings they had seen in the volumes of imports that came through.

These 'stars' are more like asterisks rather than the 'cogwheel' which is a disc with points surround. The cogwheel represents, as previously noted, a machinery element from the mills which produced blades.
The 'star' was an element of cosmological groupings.

Jens Nordlunde · 8th December 2019, 02:34 PM

When it comes to markings, I just found a funny quote in Sultans of the South. MET, 2008. Swords in the Deccan in the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Centuries: Their Manufacture and the Influence of European Imports. On p. 224 Robert Elgood writes, 'English swordsmiths followed the custom of their Solingen contemporaries and struck whatever mark on the blade seemed likely to impress a potential buyer.'

So it was not only the Indian swordsmiths who copied the European maks, the Europeans copied each others marks as well.

11th October 2019, 03:42 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Kubur's blade should be turned like this. Khanjar1, to make it easier please show the round mark turning the right way. Hold the sword with the blade pointing up in the air, and take a picture of the mark. Thank you. Attached Images

11th October 2019, 05:44 PM	#2
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Reference; A. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_of_Solomon B. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexagram The thread is most interesting since it illustrates the latten inlay on six pointed stars most accurately and draws in another style of star with eight points. Of the eight pointer I have absolutely no idea except that there is no distinction between a five and a six pointer thus perhaps they mean the same... but with eight? On the Six Pointer; There are two main separate meanings ...One in Indian religious form and the other European sense. The one we all know about is The Seal of Solomon but this is misleading since it was used for centuries in Christian form before it was adopted into Jewish . It would seem to support the view that latten inlay being used first in European swords from an ancient European seal of Solomon / star of David design points to the subject blade being European not middle eastern. Note however that ancient Damascus blades had the star form on the blade..confusingly appearing on British military blades even today as a mark of quality or in memory of high quality blades with that insignia. Wilkinson Swords all have that same star on the blade at the throat. From Reference B Quote"It is not to be wondered at, therefore, that for a long time both the five-pointed and the six-pointed stars were called by one name, the "Seal of Solomon," and that no distinction was made between them. This name is obviously related to the Jewish legend of Solomon's dominion over the spirits, and of his ring with the Ineffable Name engraved on it. These legends expanded and proliferated in a marked fashion during the Middle Ages, among Jews and Arabs alike, but the name, "Seal of Solomon," apparently originated with the Arabs."Unquote. Please see wikepedia at Reference B on the subject of this sign and the amazing array of different meanings attached in particular the Indian form of the star which is entirely different to the European reason...but may well be why it may have appeared on Indian weapons? Below an actual ring; .. The Seal of Solomon. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 11th October 2019 at 06:18 PM.

12th October 2019, 05:33 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I am adding oil to the fire. Two pics with markings from both sides of the blade. I am purposefully not showing the entire sword to have an opinion unbiased by any extraneous factors. . When we reach a consensus on those markings I shall do it. Attached Images

12th October 2019, 03:26 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Stu - glad it worked:-).

8th December 2019, 02:34 PM	#8
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	When it comes to markings, I just found a funny quote in Sultans of the South. MET, 2008. Swords in the Deccan in the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Centuries: Their Manufacture and the Influence of European Imports. On p. 224 Robert Elgood writes, 'English swordsmiths followed the custom of their Solingen contemporaries and struck whatever mark on the blade seemed likely to impress a potential buyer.' So it was not only the Indian swordsmiths who copied the European maks, the Europeans copied each others marks as well.