Hindu Armour and the Katar?

fernando · 1st May 2006, 01:29 PM

There is this book written by Rainer Daehnardt, someone assumedly within this Indian weaponry and armor subject, from which i would like to interpreter a little part:
The Pata, like the Katar, are weapons of Hindu invention.
Its named after the Pathans, a subdivision of the Xatrias, a warrior cast. It was much used in the Marathas Kingdoms, and by Sikhs and Rajputs. Patas must have appeared by the first quarter of the XVI century, with a major use of european blades ... a small percentage captured from the discoverers, but mainly the introduction of "ilegal length" european blades brought by Venetians and Portuguese. This way a well handled Pata could keep a standard lenght rapier out of reach. For the same reason it also used by cavalry.
The Pata can be considered a Katar turned into a sword. The handle system is precisely the same. There is no doubt it was the ideal type of sword, it just didn't become more popular, as its handling needed some school.
Among several pictures, we can see ( so he aledges ) the oldest existing Pata, one of the beg. XVI century, with a XV-XVI cent. Navigators blade, and an example used by Hindus that served as auxiliary Portuguese troops, with a blade inscription devoted to the Portuguese King, XVIII century.
I thought this could help enlightning the provenance of both these weapons.
fernando

B.I · 1st May 2006, 02:13 PM

hi fernando,
what you say is right, except i would not try to put a beginning date on this weapon. the jury is not out on its origins and i have hope of someone finding more information at some point during our lifetimes.
examples do exist from the 16thC, but i have never seen one that i would consider to be early 16thC. would it be possible to show the image here, or to provide the reference so i can find the book myself.
many thanks.

Jens Nordlunde · 1st May 2006, 03:13 PM

Hi Fernando,
Thank you for solving the angulas question

. Now, if 12 angulas is the same as 9 inches, that would make 1 angula about 1.95 cm - I remember them bigger. Anyway, it is strange to use the same word for a measure in one country and for a fish in another country - unless of course they have something to do with each other. What do you think?
Interesting translation you made - thank you.

Goddess Durga Mahisasuramardini. C.10th century.
In her principal right hand she holds a trident (trisula) which pierces the conquered demon in human form as he tries to leave the body of the buffalo. The principal left hand clutches the hair of the demon. In the uppermost pair of hands Durga holds a sword (khadga) and a shield (khetaga). The second pair holds a bowl (patra) or a scull-cup (kapala), and a bell (ghanta)(?), and the third pair an arrow (sara) and a bow (capa).
There is one thing, which keeps coming back to me, when we discuss the bronzes.
Let us say that a bronze made in the 10th c. showed the weapons used at the time – in this case a sword. For some reason or other they, at the same place, wanted to make a bronze representing the same deity three hundred years later. The form of the sword had changed somehow in the past period. Would they copy the sword from the old bronze, or would they use the type used at the time? I think they would copy the old one. Did you ever see a bronze with a shamshir, or a khanda for that matter, no you have not, they are wearing straight double-edged swords, possibly with a broader tip, or a leaf shaped blade, with a very old type of hilt. They were not even so modern as to use a hand guard.
I can’t say they did not make changes, but I think changes must have been very moderate, if any was made, so I think, when using bronzes in our search, we are looking for very old weapon types.

fernando · 1st May 2006, 04:14 PM

Hi B.I.
The book is called " Homens Espadas e Tomates " ISBN 972-8408-30-7, i think later translated to english with same alusive title " Men Swords and Balls". The author, a weapons historian and imense collector, is known to Paulo Cejunior, by the way.
The text quotes this Pata to be the oldest and also most primitive known. It must be from the 1st quarter XVI century. Guard made of turned and carved wood, reinforced with some iron strips. Blade of european origin, probably from a Navigator's sword, from the transiction XV-XVI century.
If further detail needed, just tell
fernando

B.I · 1st May 2006, 06:23 PM

hi fernando,
very interesting. our andy (davis) bought a similar piece recently -

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=pata

if you look at the overall form, the long guantlet and the bulbous end, and most especially the way the blade is held, the similarities are definately there.
i didnt contribute to andys post (sorry) but i had meant to (i do rememer giving an opinion, so must have done by email). the shape of his guard is early without a doubt. although some dismissed it, i found it extremely appealling and would rather have it than most i have seen for sale.
as for the date, i agree they are both early but i would be cautious at dating them into the early parts of the 16thC.
the form is relatively unknown, and the crudeness of both unfortunately makes it even harder to date (no decorative patterns to compare to).
the one you show does seem earlier than andy's, but i cant overlook the overall similarity and so would be inclined to say the come from the same family (and possibly the same date).
so, you got me! i cant agree with the date at all, but i have no substantial reason to disagree with it. if i held it my opinions may be more accurate. maybe i will take andy up on his offer to visit as i find them both intriguing. i have two late 16thC patas, both very decorative and so dating them is more comfortable. these, however, are indeed a mystery.

1st May 2006, 03:13 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Fernando, Thank you for solving the angulas question. Now, if 12 angulas is the same as 9 inches, that would make 1 angula about 1.95 cm - I remember them bigger. Anyway, it is strange to use the same word for a measure in one country and for a fish in another country - unless of course they have something to do with each other. What do you think? Interesting translation you made - thank you. Goddess Durga Mahisasuramardini. C.10th century. In her principal right hand she holds a trident (trisula) which pierces the conquered demon in human form as he tries to leave the body of the buffalo. The principal left hand clutches the hair of the demon. In the uppermost pair of hands Durga holds a sword (khadga) and a shield (khetaga). The second pair holds a bowl (patra) or a scull-cup (kapala), and a bell (ghanta)(?), and the third pair an arrow (sara) and a bow (capa). There is one thing, which keeps coming back to me, when we discuss the bronzes. Let us say that a bronze made in the 10th c. showed the weapons used at the time – in this case a sword. For some reason or other they, at the same place, wanted to make a bronze representing the same deity three hundred years later. The form of the sword had changed somehow in the past period. Would they copy the sword from the old bronze, or would they use the type used at the time? I think they would copy the old one. Did you ever see a bronze with a shamshir, or a khanda for that matter, no you have not, they are wearing straight double-edged swords, possibly with a broader tip, or a leaf shaped blade, with a very old type of hilt. They were not even so modern as to use a hand guard. I can’t say they did not make changes, but I think changes must have been very moderate, if any was made, so I think, when using bronzes in our search, we are looking for very old weapon types.

1st May 2006, 04:14 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi B.I. The book is called " Homens Espadas e Tomates " ISBN 972-8408-30-7, i think later translated to english with same alusive title " Men Swords and Balls". The author, a weapons historian and imense collector, is known to Paulo Cejunior, by the way. The text quotes this Pata to be the oldest and also most primitive known. It must be from the 1st quarter XVI century. Guard made of turned and carved wood, reinforced with some iron strips. Blade of european origin, probably from a Navigator's sword, from the transiction XV-XVI century. If further detail needed, just tell fernando Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 1st May 2006 at 05:09 PM.

1st May 2006, 01:29 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	There is this book written by Rainer Daehnardt, someone assumedly within this Indian weaponry and armor subject, from which i would like to interpreter a little part: The Pata, like the Katar, are weapons of Hindu invention. Its named after the Pathans, a subdivision of the Xatrias, a warrior cast. It was much used in the Marathas Kingdoms, and by Sikhs and Rajputs. Patas must have appeared by the first quarter of the XVI century, with a major use of european blades ... a small percentage captured from the discoverers, but mainly the introduction of "ilegal length" european blades brought by Venetians and Portuguese. This way a well handled Pata could keep a standard lenght rapier out of reach. For the same reason it also used by cavalry. The Pata can be considered a Katar turned into a sword. The handle system is precisely the same. There is no doubt it was the ideal type of sword, it just didn't become more popular, as its handling needed some school. Among several pictures, we can see ( so he aledges ) the oldest existing Pata, one of the beg. XVI century, with a XV-XVI cent. Navigators blade, and an example used by Hindus that served as auxiliary Portuguese troops, with a blade inscription devoted to the Portuguese King, XVIII century. I thought this could help enlightning the provenance of both these weapons. fernando

1st May 2006, 02:13 PM	#2
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi fernando, what you say is right, except i would not try to put a beginning date on this weapon. the jury is not out on its origins and i have hope of someone finding more information at some point during our lifetimes. examples do exist from the 16thC, but i have never seen one that i would consider to be early 16thC. would it be possible to show the image here, or to provide the reference so i can find the book myself. many thanks.

1st May 2006, 06:23 PM	#5
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi fernando, very interesting. our andy (davis) bought a similar piece recently - http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=pata if you look at the overall form, the long guantlet and the bulbous end, and most especially the way the blade is held, the similarities are definately there. i didnt contribute to andys post (sorry) but i had meant to (i do rememer giving an opinion, so must have done by email). the shape of his guard is early without a doubt. although some dismissed it, i found it extremely appealling and would rather have it than most i have seen for sale. as for the date, i agree they are both early but i would be cautious at dating them into the early parts of the 16thC. the form is relatively unknown, and the crudeness of both unfortunately makes it even harder to date (no decorative patterns to compare to). the one you show does seem earlier than andy's, but i cant overlook the overall similarity and so would be inclined to say the come from the same family (and possibly the same date). so, you got me! i cant agree with the date at all, but i have no substantial reason to disagree with it. if i held it my opinions may be more accurate. maybe i will take andy up on his offer to visit as i find them both intriguing. i have two late 16thC patas, both very decorative and so dating them is more comfortable. these, however, are indeed a mystery.