Afghan shashkas

mahratt · 24th September 2019, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Mahratt,

This is the nicest one I have seen. It looks to be a Persian mid-19th-century shamshir trade blade(with "AssadAllah" workshop marks and cartouche) made into a shashka. I love it... beautiful quality from top to bottom!

Yes Charles
I agree with you. This is the nicest one I have seen.

CharlesS · 24th September 2019, 12:57 PM

Have you translated the stylized Arabic on the scabbard mounts? Do you think the scabbard is a converted Afghan shamshir scabbard, or "born with" this sword??

mahratt · 24th September 2019, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Have you translated the stylized Arabic on the scabbard mounts? Do you think the scabbard is a converted Afghan shamshir scabbard, or "born with" this sword??

I would be very grateful if someone would help me with the translation.
In my opinion, the scabbard was made specifically for this shashka. Its handle is deeply hidden in the scabbard, which can be seen in the first photo.

ariel · 25th September 2019, 07:12 PM

Charles,

Alternatively, it was a shamshir to start with, with replaced handle and suspension rings put upside down.
This can explain the slit on the throat in a "wrong" i.e. reverse location. This was very unusual, if not unseen, on pseudo-shashkas, but necessary for highly curved shamshirs.

Jim McDougall · 25th September 2019, 09:12 PM

This is a magnificent shashka!! and with this blade even more exciting.
As Charles well notes, this is one of the Persian trade blades with the Assad Allah cartouche and lion pictograph with the calligraphy panel.
These blades are well described in Oliver Pinchot's article of 2002 in "Arms Collecting" (Vo. 40, #1, February).

As Elgood has noted these blades along with Caucasian blades entered the Arabian sphere, as well as their being found in India and other spheres receiving such trade blades. I have a Bedouin sabre with this same blade form, but much shallower curve.

That is what is so unusual and more attractive on this particular example is the more parabolic blade than usually seen with these Persian trade blades. With Ottoman kilij ofcourse, the deep parabolic blade has the slit opening in the throat of the scabbard to allow passage of the blade exiting the scabbard.
It is most unusual to see this on the reverse carry which is a Caucasian affinity for the draw cut in sort of 'quick draw' style.

While a bit of an anomaly, it is fantastic! I have actually never seen a shamshir with one of these blades, at least per se'. It seems most I have seen are in various local hilt forms as noted with use of these trade blades.

mariusgmioc · 26th September 2019, 07:23 AM

I tend to agree with Ariel.
This is an original Persian shamshir converted into a Shashka. The scabbard also appears to be the original one, modified for the new purpose.
But, this is my speculation...

ariel · 26th September 2019, 09:29 AM

Marius,
Easy to check. Shamshirs have tangs arising from the middle of the blade. Here it arises from the side. X-Ray the handle and look for additional holes.
I am also a little bit spooked by the 5th pic from the top: the big fitting with the suspension ring seems to be somewhat out of alignment with the leather.
At the end of the day it is immaterial: even if the scabbard and the handle were reworked, it was done during active life of the sword. But still would be interesting: no matter when and how, but the slit at the throat is on the wrong side of the scabbard.
It is not a fake by any standard; at the worst case it was a major modification.

mahratt · 26th September 2019, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

I tend to agree with Ariel.
This is an original Persian shamshir converted into a Shashka. The scabbard also appears to be the original one, modified for the new purpose.
But, this is my speculation...

Marius, I would agree with you. But! As you can see in the first photo, the handle of this shashka is very deeply hidden in scabbard. So I think that the master made these scabbard specifically for this shashka

kwiatek · 22nd November 2019, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

I would be very grateful if someone would help me with the translation.
In my opinion, the scabbard was made specifically for this shashka. Its handle is deeply hidden in the scabbard, which can be seen in the first photo.

Starting with the inscription nearest the throat you have

نصر من الله وفتح قريب

“Victory from God and near conquest” (part of Qur’an 61:13)

الله محمد علي حسن حسين وفاطمة

“God, Muhammad, ‘Ali, Hasan, Husayn and Fatima”

انا فتحنا لك فتحا مبينا

“Indeed we have given you a manifest victory” (Qur’an 48:1)

On the mount in the middle, you have, repeated:

يا قاضي الحاجات

ya qadi al-hajat

“O Requiter of Needs!”

Cthulhu · 5th December 2019, 06:21 PM

I can't see any evidence of drags in the circled photos Mahratt posted, leaving me a little confused on terminology. I know in some cases the term "drag" is used interchangeably with the whole chape. I've edited one of Mahratt's photos to clearly show what I call the drag, distinct from the rest of the chape.

I'll note that at least in the random sampling of European saber photos I looked at, the larger side of the drag always leads, thus providing equal or greater protection to the front side of the chape that's clunking into the ground as you walk. Looking at Mahratt's shasqa sheath, the larger side of the drag is on the concave side, meaning the concave side is downward, matching the orientation of the other mounts. The chape hasn't been removed and reversed, as the carved side and plain side on it match the face and back side (stitched side) of the leather.

All that aside, these are lovely shasqas people have. I really like the shasqa's clean lines and simplicity. I'll have to dig mine out of storage and provide a photo, but it's not in the league of the ones shown here, not by a long shot.

ariel · 6th December 2019, 12:58 AM

Well, if one looks carefully at your delineation of the drag, it is the convex side that seems to be wider, suggesting that the sword was worn “ saber- wise”, not “shashka-wise”. That would prove that the slit on the throat originally was on the upper side, and that the seller intentionally reversed the direction of the suspension fitting to give a false impression that this pseudo shashka was worn like a Caucasian shashka.

The only problem with the drag is that we have no idea whether the sword was worn low ( touching the ground) or not. My guess not: dragging was fashionable among European cavalry officers, just to impress their dancing partners. Afghanis did not care about such niceties:-)

Cthulhu · 6th December 2019, 02:59 AM

My apologies, my post was pretty ambiguous. Instead of "larger" I should have said "longer." The longer side of the drag is in the direction of travel, that is, on the underside, on every European saber where I've looked. I'm assuming this was for the functional reasons I've mentioned, and even if the sword wasn't to be dragged around it would be done in the same way. Of course there's no way to know how a non-European maker would orient the drag. However if we assume these things were done capriciously, we stop being able to say much of anything about anything.

Kubur · 6th December 2019, 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwiatek

Starting with the inscription nearest the throat you have

“God, Muhammad, ‘Ali, Hasan, Husayn and Fatima”

انا فتحنا لك فتحا مبينا

This guy should have been seriously shi'a...
Persian??

CharlesS · 6th December 2019, 12:36 PM

Thanks so much kwiatek!

kwiatek · 6th December 2019, 09:15 PM

Thank you Kubur and CharlesS for posting your pieces. It‘s great to see new things and to learn!

I think faqir here means “poor” rather than “dervish”, though you’re right that it could have that meaning. It’s quite common for artisans to sign things with a self-deprecating adjective such as “poor” or “humble” or to call themselves “servant” or “slave”.

And yes definitely Shi’i!

26th September 2019, 09:29 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Marius, Easy to check. Shamshirs have tangs arising from the middle of the blade. Here it arises from the side. X-Ray the handle and look for additional holes. I am also a little bit spooked by the 5th pic from the top: the big fitting with the suspension ring seems to be somewhat out of alignment with the leather. At the end of the day it is immaterial: even if the scabbard and the handle were reworked, it was done during active life of the sword. But still would be interesting: no matter when and how, but the slit at the throat is on the wrong side of the scabbard. It is not a fake by any standard; at the worst case it was a major modification. Last edited by ariel; 26th September 2019 at 09:46 AM.

5th December 2019, 06:21 PM	#10
Cthulhu Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: Central Valley, California Posts: 46	What a drag I can't see any evidence of drags in the circled photos Mahratt posted, leaving me a little confused on terminology. I know in some cases the term "drag" is used interchangeably with the whole chape. I've edited one of Mahratt's photos to clearly show what I call the drag, distinct from the rest of the chape. I'll note that at least in the random sampling of European saber photos I looked at, the larger side of the drag always leads, thus providing equal or greater protection to the front side of the chape that's clunking into the ground as you walk. Looking at Mahratt's shasqa sheath, the larger side of the drag is on the concave side, meaning the concave side is downward, matching the orientation of the other mounts. The chape hasn't been removed and reversed, as the carved side and plain side on it match the face and back side (stitched side) of the leather. All that aside, these are lovely shasqas people have. I really like the shasqa's clean lines and simplicity. I'll have to dig mine out of storage and provide a photo, but it's not in the league of the ones shown here, not by a long shot. Attached Images Last edited by Cthulhu; 5th December 2019 at 08:32 PM.

24th September 2019, 12:57 PM	#2
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Have you translated the stylized Arabic on the scabbard mounts? Do you think the scabbard is a converted Afghan shamshir scabbard, or "born with" this sword??

25th September 2019, 07:12 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Charles, Alternatively, it was a shamshir to start with, with replaced handle and suspension rings put upside down. This can explain the slit on the throat in a "wrong" i.e. reverse location. This was very unusual, if not unseen, on pseudo-shashkas, but necessary for highly curved shamshirs.

25th September 2019, 09:12 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	This is a magnificent shashka!! and with this blade even more exciting. As Charles well notes, this is one of the Persian trade blades with the Assad Allah cartouche and lion pictograph with the calligraphy panel. These blades are well described in Oliver Pinchot's article of 2002 in "Arms Collecting" (Vo. 40, #1, February). As Elgood has noted these blades along with Caucasian blades entered the Arabian sphere, as well as their being found in India and other spheres receiving such trade blades. I have a Bedouin sabre with this same blade form, but much shallower curve. That is what is so unusual and more attractive on this particular example is the more parabolic blade than usually seen with these Persian trade blades. With Ottoman kilij ofcourse, the deep parabolic blade has the slit opening in the throat of the scabbard to allow passage of the blade exiting the scabbard. It is most unusual to see this on the reverse carry which is a Caucasian affinity for the draw cut in sort of 'quick draw' style. While a bit of an anomaly, it is fantastic! I have actually never seen a shamshir with one of these blades, at least per se'. It seems most I have seen are in various local hilt forms as noted with use of these trade blades.

26th September 2019, 07:23 AM	#6
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	I tend to agree with Ariel. This is an original Persian shamshir converted into a Shashka. The scabbard also appears to be the original one, modified for the new purpose. But, this is my speculation...

6th December 2019, 12:58 AM	#11
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Well, if one looks carefully at your delineation of the drag, it is the convex side that seems to be wider, suggesting that the sword was worn “ saber- wise”, not “shashka-wise”. That would prove that the slit on the throat originally was on the upper side, and that the seller intentionally reversed the direction of the suspension fitting to give a false impression that this pseudo shashka was worn like a Caucasian shashka. The only problem with the drag is that we have no idea whether the sword was worn low ( touching the ground) or not. My guess not: dragging was fashionable among European cavalry officers, just to impress their dancing partners. Afghanis did not care about such niceties:-)

6th December 2019, 02:59 AM	#12
Cthulhu Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: Central Valley, California Posts: 46	My apologies, my post was pretty ambiguous. Instead of "larger" I should have said "longer." The longer side of the drag is in the direction of travel, that is, on the underside, on every European saber where I've looked. I'm assuming this was for the functional reasons I've mentioned, and even if the sword wasn't to be dragged around it would be done in the same way. Of course there's no way to know how a non-European maker would orient the drag. However if we assume these things were done capriciously, we stop being able to say much of anything about anything.

6th December 2019, 12:36 PM	#14
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Thanks so much kwiatek!

6th December 2019, 09:15 PM	#15
kwiatek Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 156	Thank you Kubur and CharlesS for posting your pieces. It‘s great to see new things and to learn! I think faqir here means “poor” rather than “dervish”, though you’re right that it could have that meaning. It’s quite common for artisans to sign things with a self-deprecating adjective such as “poor” or “humble” or to call themselves “servant” or “slave”. And yes definitely Shi’i!