Old Khyber

ariel · 18th September 2019, 06:57 PM

Update:
One of the " translators" sent me a message: this is written in ancient variant of Farsi, but the quality of deep etching is very poor, the letters flow into each other.
She could translate only a small fragment:" ...the king gave advice to his son..."
She is taking it to her parents ; perhaps, they might be more successful, but I doubt more and more that translation may give us any specific information: Persians were fond of general statements of literary origin inscribed on their blades. I have a Khyber with rhino handle and 4 rivets (2-1-1); the upper 2 used to be "big" , but the washers were lost. It is inscribed in old Persian with a quote from Sa'adi's " Golestan ( 13 century). Central Asia ( Bukhara, Khiva, Samarkand)? Northern Afghanistan? Iran proper?

So, one thing is clear: the etching was made by a Farsi-speaking person. Whether he was an itinerant master from Iran or a Persianized Afghani is unclear. In any case, it may explain the human figure and ,- perhaps,- the date of 1850 in Persian calendar Jalali.

mariusgmioc · 18th September 2019, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

So, one thing is clear: the etching was made by a Farsi-speaking person. Whether he was an itinerant master from Iran or a Persianized Afghani is unclear. In any case, it may explain the human figure and ,- perhaps,- the date of 1850 in Persian calendar Jalali.

I beg to differ! Nothing is clear. The one who made the etching could have been simply copying it 1:1 from somewhere else.

Jim McDougall · 18th September 2019, 08:25 PM

I think this is a strong case, again, for this weapon bearing a commemorative inscription. While the original text or example of the wording being copied was possibly (or more likely) to have been applied by someone not necessarily fluent or even familiar with the Farsi language, it does suggest the intent.
The individual applying the wording to the host weapon, by the crude character of the motif, certainly was not a master craftsman of Persia or anywhere for that matter. However, it seems a sincere attempt to portray a traditional or highly held wording of Farsi, as noted.

Inscriptions in these languages and phrases surely have been used on other Khyber's of course, but the use of acid etching is unusual as we have discussed.

ariel · 19th September 2019, 06:55 PM

Rephrasing my conclusion: the use of Farsi defines the etcher and/ or the owner as belonging to Persianized Afghani tribe.

Marius: is that better?

ariel · 25th September 2019, 06:44 PM

OK, final summary.
1. We have already established that the sword in question is an Afghani khyber.
2. It has a deep etching in Farsi, and the dating in Jalali puts it somewhere in the third quarter of 19th century.
The remaining questions were:
a). Meaning of the inscription
b). Uncertainty whether Persian technique of deep etching was used on Afghani swords.

Recent info:
Parents of my other informer ( both former professors of Persian literature and linguistics respectively) were able to read only part of the inscription due to imperfections of the etching technique. It is in ancient Farsi.
Not unexpectedly, just like in my other khyber ( inscription was done using gold wire unlay and easily readable), this is just an unrelated verse.

On the khyber in question is a quote from Sa'adi's Golestan.
"A king placed his son in a school,
Putting in his lap a silver tablet
Wrote on it in golden letters:
The hard work of a teacher is better than the love of a father."

As expected, nothing about the sword itself, just some morality verse.

As to the technique, I am attaching pics of an Afghani pseudo-shashka with deep etching on both sides along the entire length of the blade. Did not even ask to translate it: everybody is free to choose his favourite Sa'adi's verse:-)
But the bottom line, deep etching can be found on other examples of typical Afghani weapons. They might be infrequent, but they do exist.

So, my conclusion: Afghani Khyber mid-late 19th century, with deep-etching decoration in Farsi, quoting almost sacred Farsi poetry, intended for a Persianized Afghani.

mahratt · 26th September 2019, 12:09 PM

In the early 20th century, acid etching can see on Afghan blades made for the army. But! This acid etching is very different from what we see on the discussed Khyber knife. So a this shashka with acid etching made for the army is not a correct example.

ariel · 26th September 2019, 06:46 PM

Well, to re-summarize;
First, the French word "ancien (old) is incorrectly translated as " ancient". After which the seller is accused in not mentioning that the etching was done at the end of 20th century, with no objective evidence to prove the accusation. Upon realization that this interpretation was wrong, this issue slithered away.

Second, there are repeat assertions that deep etching was not used by Afghani masters. Having been presented with an unquestionable example, the tune is changed and now etching WAS actually done at the beginning of 20th century, and the presented example does not count.

That is exactly what I was talking about: Everybody is entitled to his opinions but not to his facts.
And some knowledge of foreign languages doesn't hurt either:-)

25th September 2019, 06:44 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	OK, final summary. 1. We have already established that the sword in question is an Afghani khyber. 2. It has a deep etching in Farsi, and the dating in Jalali puts it somewhere in the third quarter of 19th century. The remaining questions were: a). Meaning of the inscription b). Uncertainty whether Persian technique of deep etching was used on Afghani swords. Recent info: Parents of my other informer ( both former professors of Persian literature and linguistics respectively) were able to read only part of the inscription due to imperfections of the etching technique. It is in ancient Farsi. Not unexpectedly, just like in my other khyber ( inscription was done using gold wire unlay and easily readable), this is just an unrelated verse. On the khyber in question is a quote from Sa'adi's Golestan. "A king placed his son in a school, Putting in his lap a silver tablet Wrote on it in golden letters: The hard work of a teacher is better than the love of a father." As expected, nothing about the sword itself, just some morality verse. As to the technique, I am attaching pics of an Afghani pseudo-shashka with deep etching on both sides along the entire length of the blade. Did not even ask to translate it: everybody is free to choose his favourite Sa'adi's verse:-) But the bottom line, deep etching can be found on other examples of typical Afghani weapons. They might be infrequent, but they do exist. So, my conclusion: Afghani Khyber mid-late 19th century, with deep-etching decoration in Farsi, quoting almost sacred Farsi poetry, intended for a Persianized Afghani. Attached Images Last edited by ariel; 25th September 2019 at 06:58 PM.

18th September 2019, 06:57 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Update: One of the " translators" sent me a message: this is written in ancient variant of Farsi, but the quality of deep etching is very poor, the letters flow into each other. She could translate only a small fragment:" ...the king gave advice to his son..." She is taking it to her parents ; perhaps, they might be more successful, but I doubt more and more that translation may give us any specific information: Persians were fond of general statements of literary origin inscribed on their blades. I have a Khyber with rhino handle and 4 rivets (2-1-1); the upper 2 used to be "big" , but the washers were lost. It is inscribed in old Persian with a quote from Sa'adi's " Golestan ( 13 century). Central Asia ( Bukhara, Khiva, Samarkand)? Northern Afghanistan? Iran proper? So, one thing is clear: the etching was made by a Farsi-speaking person. Whether he was an itinerant master from Iran or a Persianized Afghani is unclear. In any case, it may explain the human figure and ,- perhaps,- the date of 1850 in Persian calendar Jalali.

18th September 2019, 08:25 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,592	I think this is a strong case, again, for this weapon bearing a commemorative inscription. While the original text or example of the wording being copied was possibly (or more likely) to have been applied by someone not necessarily fluent or even familiar with the Farsi language, it does suggest the intent. The individual applying the wording to the host weapon, by the crude character of the motif, certainly was not a master craftsman of Persia or anywhere for that matter. However, it seems a sincere attempt to portray a traditional or highly held wording of Farsi, as noted. Inscriptions in these languages and phrases surely have been used on other Khyber's of course, but the use of acid etching is unusual as we have discussed.

19th September 2019, 06:55 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Rephrasing my conclusion: the use of Farsi defines the etcher and/ or the owner as belonging to Persianized Afghani tribe. Marius: is that better?

26th September 2019, 12:09 PM	#6
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	In the early 20th century, acid etching can see on Afghan blades made for the army. But! This acid etching is very different from what we see on the discussed Khyber knife. So a this shashka with acid etching made for the army is not a correct example.

26th September 2019, 06:46 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Well, to re-summarize; First, the French word "ancien (old) is incorrectly translated as " ancient". After which the seller is accused in not mentioning that the etching was done at the end of 20th century, with no objective evidence to prove the accusation. Upon realization that this interpretation was wrong, this issue slithered away. Second, there are repeat assertions that deep etching was not used by Afghani masters. Having been presented with an unquestionable example, the tune is changed and now etching WAS actually done at the beginning of 20th century, and the presented example does not count. That is exactly what I was talking about: Everybody is entitled to his opinions but not to his facts. And some knowledge of foreign languages doesn't hurt either:-)