Old Khyber

[ariel]

Jim,
I am waiting for a word from two Iranian colleagues re. inscription.
Then I shall be able to answer your questions.

Fair enough?

[ariel]

Jim,
Forgot to mention:
The so-called “ Khybers” were not limited to the Khyber Pass area. The best evidence is the variability of their handles: beak-y in the majority of cases, Karabela-like in the rest. They penetrated both East ( India) and West ( Iran), yet another suggestion of their widespread presence

They acquired the moniker you are talking about from the Brits who fought Afghanis there. And locals never called them “Khyber knives”, for them it was “ selava”.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by ariel

Jim,
Forgot to mention:
The so-called “ Khybers” were not limited to the Khyber Pass area. The best evidence is the variability of their handles: beak-y in the majority of cases, Karabela-like in the rest. They penetrated both East ( India) and West ( Iran), yet another suggestion of their widespread presence

They acquired the moniker you are talking about from the Brits who fought Afghanis there. And locals never called them “Khyber knives”, for them it was “ selava”.

Thanks very much Ariel, I knew of course the odd moniker came from the Hobsen-Jobsen of the British forces in the Khyber regions (apparently these were known locally as salwar or selava?(sic). But I had no idea of these huge knives (swords) in India or Iran.
I knew of course the 'smaller' versions in the spectrum of pesh kabz reached into those spheres, but not the huge Khyber swords.

Any chance of seeing an example of a Khyber knife (large blade) from India or Iran? Naturally I am referring to these large 'triangular' (for lack of better geometric description) blades, almost like a butcher knife.

[ariel]

The beautiful one on the front cover of the “ Afghani edged weapons” book is Indian. Fiegels’ sale catalogue has a couple of Persian. I have one with deep old Indian chiseling ( thanks, Jens) and another potentially Indian with elephant ivory handle and sophisticated wootz blade.
But we are talking about Afghanistan proper , and most khybers in use there will be of local manufacture.
It’s like seeing more Fords than Fiats and Alfa Romeos in America. But move to Italy, and the proportions will flip. And, of course, their occurrence in neighboring countries is likely to be largely limited to ethic Afghans, such as Khyber Pakhtunhwa in contemporary Pakistan, formerly part of India.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by ariel

The beautiful one on the front cover of the “ Afghani edged weapons” book is Indian. Fiegels’ sale catalogue has a couple of Persian. I have one with deep old Indian chiseling ( thanks, Jens) and another potentially Indian with elephant ivory handle and sophisticated wootz blade.
But we are talking about Afghanistan proper , and most khybers in use there will be of local manufacture.
It’s like seeing more Fords than Fiats and Alfa Romeos in America. But move to Italy, and the proportions will flip. And, of course, their occurrence in neighboring countries is likely to be largely limited to ethic Afghans, such as Khyber Pakhtunhwa in contemporary Pakistan, formerly part of India.

Crossed posts! I did not realize the one on the book cover was Indian (?). Would that be in that Afghanistan in the 19th c. was considered part of India?
I do not have Fiegel handy, but again did not realize there were Persian Khyber's in it. It does seem quite understandable that ethnic persons of Khyber tribes in other geographic locales might take their Khyber's along.

[mahratt]

I'd like to clarify a little bit the words of the Ariel. Indeed, there are many Khyber knives made in India or by Indian craftsmen in Afghanistan. Such Khyber knives can be seen in large quantities in museums in India. But! Khyber knives, which we could call "Persian" (made in Persia or by Persian masters in Afghanistan) are known very little...

[Jim McDougall]

Dima thank you for this information and clarification! I truly did not know of these Khyber swords being made in India, but I can understand that there must have been Indian craftsmen in Afghan regions who might make them.
As you well note, the idea of these often very large bladed Khyber swords being made in Persia seems very unlikely, just as the idea of Persian craftsmen in Afghanistan seems remote.

It seems well established of course that artisans of regions often move to other areas, and in doing so take their skills and styling character with them of course. It makes sense that obviously these styles, techniques and character would in degree become melded together in the examples they produced.

I think the objective of recognizing the possibility of this particular Khyber being one of these hybrids, or accounting for its unusual decoration is well at hand here. As far as I can see however, is that this example in the original post is of the commonly seen versions produced in the typical manner in Khyber regions, rather than one produced in these other areas noted.

We return to the very crudely applied acid etched decoration. We know that this technique was used in Persia, and by its craftsmen. It is possible that this technique, which became it seems more widely practiced in latter part of 19th c. (thinking of the Sudanese thuluth case) may have been carried into many regions by craftsmen relocating.

I think its crudely applied character of the decoration here, which has been the primary point of contention, pretty much renders the possibility of being done by a skilled craftsman unlikely, particularly Persian. The likelihood of the scenario proposed by Ed, a copied theme added by a tribal artisan representing local traditions or events is far more plausible.