Old Khyber

Jim McDougall · 15th September 2019, 06:24 PM

While we have finally agreed that there may be some tangible message or words in the script etched onto this blade, in yet an undetermined dialect or language, it seems there is yet another factor which may be considered toward the Khyber itself.

We have agreed this Khyber is indeed of mid to third quarter 19th.c (at least I think we have) and in my opinion, these seem to have produced exclusively in Afghan regions in and around the Khyber Pass itself. It seems exclusive to the indigenous tribes of the Khyber, and as far as I have known, is not well known in the broader parts of Afghanistan or neighboring countries.

As once well expressed by Torben Flindt, ethnographic weapons have no geographic boundaries, of course an obvious axiom which sometimes seems overlooked in stringent weapon form classifications.

So I think we can agree that this Khyber was not made in Persia, or any other location beyond the sphere of the Khyber regions and its tribes.

With regard to 'if's', in my perception these are the ideas and observations that form postulations which may well become factual holdings. Just as Ed has suggested, and has recognized as perhaps 'fanciful', his idea for the possible present character of the 'old Khyber', is well ratiocinated and has compelling potential.

These Central Asian regions are some of the most traveled, invaded, and vibrantly changing in ethnic diversity in the world. The 'Great Game' is but a modern term for the dynamics that have existed there for millenia. It would be naïve to think that a weapon, even as distinctly geographically oriented as the Khyber, could not be transported into any if not many of these regions occasionally.

What is unusual, if not distinctly anomalous with this one, is not the sword itself, but the character of the motif and its acid etching application. I would join in being extremely interested in knowing of any other examples bearing this type of decoration on Khyber knives. This process is as far as I have known, as Dima has well noted, not known in the regions where Khybers are indigenous, nor for that matter contiguous areas.

While a break has been suggested, personally I find this discussion, and particularly the excellent discourse, fascinating, so I hope we can continue while hopefully finding more evidential material.

ariel · 15th September 2019, 08:58 PM

Jim,
I am waiting for a word from two Iranian colleagues re. inscription.
Then I shall be able to answer your questions.

Fair enough?

ariel · 15th September 2019, 09:28 PM

Jim,
Forgot to mention:
The so-called “ Khybers” were not limited to the Khyber Pass area. The best evidence is the variability of their handles: beak-y in the majority of cases, Karabela-like in the rest. They penetrated both East ( India) and West ( Iran), yet another suggestion of their widespread presence

They acquired the moniker you are talking about from the Brits who fought Afghanis there. And locals never called them “Khyber knives”, for them it was “ selava”.

Jim McDougall · 15th September 2019, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Jim,
Forgot to mention:
The so-called “ Khybers” were not limited to the Khyber Pass area. The best evidence is the variability of their handles: beak-y in the majority of cases, Karabela-like in the rest. They penetrated both East ( India) and West ( Iran), yet another suggestion of their widespread presence

They acquired the moniker you are talking about from the Brits who fought Afghanis there. And locals never called them “Khyber knives”, for them it was “ selava”.

Thanks very much Ariel, I knew of course the odd moniker came from the Hobsen-Jobsen of the British forces in the Khyber regions (apparently these were known locally as salwar or selava?(sic). But I had no idea of these huge knives (swords) in India or Iran.
I knew of course the 'smaller' versions in the spectrum of pesh kabz reached into those spheres, but not the huge Khyber swords.

Any chance of seeing an example of a Khyber knife (large blade) from India or Iran? Naturally I am referring to these large 'triangular' (for lack of better geometric description) blades, almost like a butcher knife.

ariel · 15th September 2019, 11:53 PM

The beautiful one on the front cover of the “ Afghani edged weapons” book is Indian. Fiegels’ sale catalogue has a couple of Persian. I have one with deep old Indian chiseling ( thanks, Jens) and another potentially Indian with elephant ivory handle and sophisticated wootz blade.
But we are talking about Afghanistan proper , and most khybers in use there will be of local manufacture.
It’s like seeing more Fords than Fiats and Alfa Romeos in America. But move to Italy, and the proportions will flip. And, of course, their occurrence in neighboring countries is likely to be largely limited to ethic Afghans, such as Khyber Pakhtunhwa in contemporary Pakistan, formerly part of India.

Jim McDougall · 16th September 2019, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

The beautiful one on the front cover of the “ Afghani edged weapons” book is Indian. Fiegels’ sale catalogue has a couple of Persian. I have one with deep old Indian chiseling ( thanks, Jens) and another potentially Indian with elephant ivory handle and sophisticated wootz blade.
But we are talking about Afghanistan proper , and most khybers in use there will be of local manufacture.
It’s like seeing more Fords than Fiats and Alfa Romeos in America. But move to Italy, and the proportions will flip. And, of course, their occurrence in neighboring countries is likely to be largely limited to ethic Afghans, such as Khyber Pakhtunhwa in contemporary Pakistan, formerly part of India.

Crossed posts! I did not realize the one on the book cover was Indian (?). Would that be in that Afghanistan in the 19th c. was considered part of India?
I do not have Fiegel handy, but again did not realize there were Persian Khyber's in it. It does seem quite understandable that ethnic persons of Khyber tribes in other geographic locales might take their Khyber's along.

mahratt · 16th September 2019, 10:46 AM

I'd like to clarify a little bit the words of the Ariel. Indeed, there are many Khyber knives made in India or by Indian craftsmen in Afghanistan. Such Khyber knives can be seen in large quantities in museums in India. But! Khyber knives, which we could call "Persian" (made in Persia or by Persian masters in Afghanistan) are known very little...

15th September 2019, 06:24 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,590	While we have finally agreed that there may be some tangible message or words in the script etched onto this blade, in yet an undetermined dialect or language, it seems there is yet another factor which may be considered toward the Khyber itself. We have agreed this Khyber is indeed of mid to third quarter 19th.c (at least I think we have) and in my opinion, these seem to have produced exclusively in Afghan regions in and around the Khyber Pass itself. It seems exclusive to the indigenous tribes of the Khyber, and as far as I have known, is not well known in the broader parts of Afghanistan or neighboring countries. As once well expressed by Torben Flindt, ethnographic weapons have no geographic boundaries, of course an obvious axiom which sometimes seems overlooked in stringent weapon form classifications. So I think we can agree that this Khyber was not made in Persia, or any other location beyond the sphere of the Khyber regions and its tribes. With regard to 'if's', in my perception these are the ideas and observations that form postulations which may well become factual holdings. Just as Ed has suggested, and has recognized as perhaps 'fanciful', his idea for the possible present character of the 'old Khyber', is well ratiocinated and has compelling potential. These Central Asian regions are some of the most traveled, invaded, and vibrantly changing in ethnic diversity in the world. The 'Great Game' is but a modern term for the dynamics that have existed there for millenia. It would be naïve to think that a weapon, even as distinctly geographically oriented as the Khyber, could not be transported into any if not many of these regions occasionally. What is unusual, if not distinctly anomalous with this one, is not the sword itself, but the character of the motif and its acid etching application. I would join in being extremely interested in knowing of any other examples bearing this type of decoration on Khyber knives. This process is as far as I have known, as Dima has well noted, not known in the regions where Khybers are indigenous, nor for that matter contiguous areas. While a break has been suggested, personally I find this discussion, and particularly the excellent discourse, fascinating, so I hope we can continue while hopefully finding more evidential material.

15th September 2019, 08:58 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jim, I am waiting for a word from two Iranian colleagues re. inscription. Then I shall be able to answer your questions. Fair enough?

15th September 2019, 09:28 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jim, Forgot to mention: The so-called “ Khybers” were not limited to the Khyber Pass area. The best evidence is the variability of their handles: beak-y in the majority of cases, Karabela-like in the rest. They penetrated both East ( India) and West ( Iran), yet another suggestion of their widespread presence They acquired the moniker you are talking about from the Brits who fought Afghanis there. And locals never called them “Khyber knives”, for them it was “ selava”.

15th September 2019, 11:53 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The beautiful one on the front cover of the “ Afghani edged weapons” book is Indian. Fiegels’ sale catalogue has a couple of Persian. I have one with deep old Indian chiseling ( thanks, Jens) and another potentially Indian with elephant ivory handle and sophisticated wootz blade. But we are talking about Afghanistan proper , and most khybers in use there will be of local manufacture. It’s like seeing more Fords than Fiats and Alfa Romeos in America. But move to Italy, and the proportions will flip. And, of course, their occurrence in neighboring countries is likely to be largely limited to ethic Afghans, such as Khyber Pakhtunhwa in contemporary Pakistan, formerly part of India.

16th September 2019, 10:46 AM	#7
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	I'd like to clarify a little bit the words of the Ariel. Indeed, there are many Khyber knives made in India or by Indian craftsmen in Afghanistan. Such Khyber knives can be seen in large quantities in museums in India. But! Khyber knives, which we could call "Persian" (made in Persia or by Persian masters in Afghanistan) are known very little...