Old Khyber

Jim McDougall · 14th September 2019, 10:31 PM

I look forward to hearing more from Persian speakers on possibility of actual words or perhaps phrases in this acid etched motif. While as I have stated my sense is that this is a genuine tribal Khyber which has perhaps entered the Kalash (Kafir) realm, possibly a trophy.

Since like much of Afghanistan, Uzbekistan (Bukhara) Sind and Baluchistan, who all had profound Persian influences present....this was probably quite so in the Nuristan regions. However, it should be noted that the Kalash have tried to maintain their animist religious tradition and beliefs in autonomy in the areas of Chitral where they relocated after Rahman Khans incursion in 1890s.

It is curious to see such motif and affectation applied in what appears to be regarded as in Persian style but with Kalash images coupled with supposed Persian script and dating.
Could this be some sort of syncretic anomaly?

Here I would note that with decorative calligraphy, it has often been presumed that in many cases it is in effect 'jibberish' or simply approximated lettering to achieve a provocative result in imbuement of a blade.
This was the case with the heavy lettering used on Sudanese blades in the late 19th c. known as 'thuluth'. It has been discovered however, that much of this decorative calligraphy is typically in reality select phrases or wording from Koranic Surahs in numbers of examples. This however is used in repetition and sometimes with added contemporary invocations related to the Mahdi.

In the case of Persian decoration, the well known blades of the Persian trade blades of the early 19th c. (well described in Oliver Pinchot's " On the Persian Shamshir and the Signature of Assad Allah", Arms Collecting, Vol. 40, #1. Feb.2002) he details the fact that these blades were decorated with a cartouche holding the Persian lion image to represent the famed makers name. While with scripted cartouche as well, this pictogram served as recognition visually for less than literate clientele. These were the kinds of considerations often used in decoration of these blades in these times of far broader availability of weapons.

Perhaps this 'decoration' is also in such manner, and Ed's suggestion is of course well placed. Hopefully Ariels resources will find for or against the matter.
Fingers crossed!!

Kubur · 14th September 2019, 11:05 PM

Guys

Just google Pamir petroglyphs or rock art, or just download the article below...
Is it possible that this sword is not from Afghanistan but from Pamir in Tadjikistan?
Or an Afghan sword decorated in Tadjikistan in the Wakhan Corridor??
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/m...khan-corridor/

Kubur

mahratt · 14th September 2019, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Guys

Just google Pamir petroglyphs or rock art, or just download the article below...
Is it possible that this sword is not from Afghanistan but from Pamir in Tadjikistan?
Or an Afghan sword decorated in Tadjikistan in the Wakhan Corridor??
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/m...khan-corridor/

Kubur

Thanks Kubur!

Great version! But ... Maybe someone will show items from Tajikistan with such "acid etching" on the blade? I have not seen ... And I can’t remember that in Tajikistan or in Bukhara, "acid etching" was done on the blades. But it will be very interesting for me to see such items.

Edster · 15th September 2019, 01:21 PM

I agree with Kubar that the image is in a pictograph-style and Jim"s suggestion that the pictogram has a representable meaning.

How's this for an interesting if fanciful tale? Suppose a traveler during the Great Game era came across a pictogram of an ancient battle (note the curved bladed sword and rounded figures with holes in them, dead people?). Say the pictogram continued to have relevance to the locals. The traveler copied the image and had it etched into the knife along with a commemorative account of the battle in the Tadjik language which I think is a version of Farsi.

Ed

ariel · 15th September 2019, 04:04 PM

A bit too many "ifs" for my taste:-)
I have no idea whether the content of inscriptions might help, but no matter what, there are other unquestionably Afghani examples with similar wall-to-wall deeply etched texts along the entire blade. They might be infrequent, but this khyber is not a "unique" example.

The really interesting question would be where were they manufactured: all over the country, or limited to the Persianized ( Shia?) enclaves?

mahratt · 15th September 2019, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

A bit too many "ifs" for my taste:-)
I have no idea whether the content of inscriptions might help, but no matter what, there are other unquestionably Afghani examples with similar wall-to-wall deeply etched texts along the entire blade. They might be infrequent, but this khyber is not a "unique" example.

The really interesting question would be where were they manufactured: all over the country, of limited to the Persianized ( Shia?) enclaves?

Wow. We'll see more examples of Khyberian knives with such primitive "acid etching"? I look forward to it! I think the rest of them too.

Jim McDougall · 15th September 2019, 06:24 PM

While we have finally agreed that there may be some tangible message or words in the script etched onto this blade, in yet an undetermined dialect or language, it seems there is yet another factor which may be considered toward the Khyber itself.

We have agreed this Khyber is indeed of mid to third quarter 19th.c (at least I think we have) and in my opinion, these seem to have produced exclusively in Afghan regions in and around the Khyber Pass itself. It seems exclusive to the indigenous tribes of the Khyber, and as far as I have known, is not well known in the broader parts of Afghanistan or neighboring countries.

As once well expressed by Torben Flindt, ethnographic weapons have no geographic boundaries, of course an obvious axiom which sometimes seems overlooked in stringent weapon form classifications.

So I think we can agree that this Khyber was not made in Persia, or any other location beyond the sphere of the Khyber regions and its tribes.

With regard to 'if's', in my perception these are the ideas and observations that form postulations which may well become factual holdings. Just as Ed has suggested, and has recognized as perhaps 'fanciful', his idea for the possible present character of the 'old Khyber', is well ratiocinated and has compelling potential.

These Central Asian regions are some of the most traveled, invaded, and vibrantly changing in ethnic diversity in the world. The 'Great Game' is but a modern term for the dynamics that have existed there for millenia. It would be naïve to think that a weapon, even as distinctly geographically oriented as the Khyber, could not be transported into any if not many of these regions occasionally.

What is unusual, if not distinctly anomalous with this one, is not the sword itself, but the character of the motif and its acid etching application. I would join in being extremely interested in knowing of any other examples bearing this type of decoration on Khyber knives. This process is as far as I have known, as Dima has well noted, not known in the regions where Khybers are indigenous, nor for that matter contiguous areas.

While a break has been suggested, personally I find this discussion, and particularly the excellent discourse, fascinating, so I hope we can continue while hopefully finding more evidential material.

15th September 2019, 04:04 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	A bit too many "ifs" for my taste:-) I have no idea whether the content of inscriptions might help, but no matter what, there are other unquestionably Afghani examples with similar wall-to-wall deeply etched texts along the entire blade. They might be infrequent, but this khyber is not a "unique" example. The really interesting question would be where were they manufactured: all over the country, or limited to the Persianized ( Shia?) enclaves? Last edited by ariel; 15th September 2019 at 05:29 PM.

14th September 2019, 10:31 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,585	I look forward to hearing more from Persian speakers on possibility of actual words or perhaps phrases in this acid etched motif. While as I have stated my sense is that this is a genuine tribal Khyber which has perhaps entered the Kalash (Kafir) realm, possibly a trophy. Since like much of Afghanistan, Uzbekistan (Bukhara) Sind and Baluchistan, who all had profound Persian influences present....this was probably quite so in the Nuristan regions. However, it should be noted that the Kalash have tried to maintain their animist religious tradition and beliefs in autonomy in the areas of Chitral where they relocated after Rahman Khans incursion in 1890s. It is curious to see such motif and affectation applied in what appears to be regarded as in Persian style but with Kalash images coupled with supposed Persian script and dating. Could this be some sort of syncretic anomaly? Here I would note that with decorative calligraphy, it has often been presumed that in many cases it is in effect 'jibberish' or simply approximated lettering to achieve a provocative result in imbuement of a blade. This was the case with the heavy lettering used on Sudanese blades in the late 19th c. known as 'thuluth'. It has been discovered however, that much of this decorative calligraphy is typically in reality select phrases or wording from Koranic Surahs in numbers of examples. This however is used in repetition and sometimes with added contemporary invocations related to the Mahdi. In the case of Persian decoration, the well known blades of the Persian trade blades of the early 19th c. (well described in Oliver Pinchot's " On the Persian Shamshir and the Signature of Assad Allah", Arms Collecting, Vol. 40, #1. Feb.2002) he details the fact that these blades were decorated with a cartouche holding the Persian lion image to represent the famed makers name. While with scripted cartouche as well, this pictogram served as recognition visually for less than literate clientele. These were the kinds of considerations often used in decoration of these blades in these times of far broader availability of weapons. Perhaps this 'decoration' is also in such manner, and Ed's suggestion is of course well placed. Hopefully Ariels resources will find for or against the matter. Fingers crossed!!

15th September 2019, 01:21 PM	#4
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 440	I agree with Kubar that the image is in a pictograph-style and Jim"s suggestion that the pictogram has a representable meaning. How's this for an interesting if fanciful tale? Suppose a traveler during the Great Game era came across a pictogram of an ancient battle (note the curved bladed sword and rounded figures with holes in them, dead people?). Say the pictogram continued to have relevance to the locals. The traveler copied the image and had it etched into the knife along with a commemorative account of the battle in the Tadjik language which I think is a version of Farsi. Ed

15th September 2019, 06:24 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,585	While we have finally agreed that there may be some tangible message or words in the script etched onto this blade, in yet an undetermined dialect or language, it seems there is yet another factor which may be considered toward the Khyber itself. We have agreed this Khyber is indeed of mid to third quarter 19th.c (at least I think we have) and in my opinion, these seem to have produced exclusively in Afghan regions in and around the Khyber Pass itself. It seems exclusive to the indigenous tribes of the Khyber, and as far as I have known, is not well known in the broader parts of Afghanistan or neighboring countries. As once well expressed by Torben Flindt, ethnographic weapons have no geographic boundaries, of course an obvious axiom which sometimes seems overlooked in stringent weapon form classifications. So I think we can agree that this Khyber was not made in Persia, or any other location beyond the sphere of the Khyber regions and its tribes. With regard to 'if's', in my perception these are the ideas and observations that form postulations which may well become factual holdings. Just as Ed has suggested, and has recognized as perhaps 'fanciful', his idea for the possible present character of the 'old Khyber', is well ratiocinated and has compelling potential. These Central Asian regions are some of the most traveled, invaded, and vibrantly changing in ethnic diversity in the world. The 'Great Game' is but a modern term for the dynamics that have existed there for millenia. It would be naïve to think that a weapon, even as distinctly geographically oriented as the Khyber, could not be transported into any if not many of these regions occasionally. What is unusual, if not distinctly anomalous with this one, is not the sword itself, but the character of the motif and its acid etching application. I would join in being extremely interested in knowing of any other examples bearing this type of decoration on Khyber knives. This process is as far as I have known, as Dima has well noted, not known in the regions where Khybers are indigenous, nor for that matter contiguous areas. While a break has been suggested, personally I find this discussion, and particularly the excellent discourse, fascinating, so I hope we can continue while hopefully finding more evidential material.