The Mexican gunpowder dilemma

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...The fact that Joe was hit in the head and survived is telling...

Actually Joe was describing how Travis was shot; i also didn't figure it out in the first place, when i read (and transcribed) the article.

[fernando]

... resuming that bad gunpowder was not the sole reason for Mexican forces failure but, a set of liabilities that could be avoided with skilled organization, tactics & discipline for one, obviously aggravated by the gunpowder issues; a well called dilemma by Jim which, for a start, if we think that firearms gunpowder was brought to Mexico by the Spaniards and only afterwards the locals started using it in fireworks, how could they forgot the propellant version know how ?
Was it an issue of components quality, rather than pure knowledge ? Mexico was rich in saltpeter, the main 'variable' of powder quality. Furthermore, if i understand correctly, making fireworks is a rather more complex craft.
Indeed when reading the various works on the Peninsular war, it was all about systems, tactics, discipline and such sort of the things that brought Anglo-Portuguese forces to victory over those of Napoleon... only seconded by equipment.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

... resuming that bad gunpowder was not the sole reason for Mexican forces failure but, a set of liabilities that could be avoided with skilled organization, tactics & discipline for one, obviously aggravated by the gunpowder issues; a well called dilemma by Jim which, for a start, if we think that firearms gunpowder was brought to Mexico by the Spaniards and only afterwards the locals started using it in fireworks, how could they forgot the propellant version know how ?
Was it an issue of components quality, rather than pure knowledge ? Mexico was rich in saltpeter, the main 'variable' of powder quality. Furthermore, if i understand correctly, making fireworks is a rather more complex craft.
Indeed when reading the various works on the Peninsular war, it was all about systems, tactics, discipline and such sort of the things that brought Anglo-Portuguese forces to victory over those of Napoleon... only seconded by equipment.

Well put Fernando, the 'dilemma' with powder was but one of the many issues, actually failings, of Santa Anna's forces which ultimately led to his defeat. The Alamo was but what in reality was an inconsequential rout, not a strategic battle, and the lack of viability of Santa Anna's forces would have resulted in a probably different outcome if Texian forces were military and in more conventional tactics and equipment.

Santa Anna, in my perception, was a bit an egotist and narcissist, who was more obsessed with Napoleon and his brilliant military acumen as seen by him. It seemed almost as if he was a 'military wargamer' with a living army to play out his fantasies, all dressed out in the colorful pageantry of the Napoleonic uniforms and tactics. He appears to have obviously been far less concerned with viable supplies of importance, such as gun powder. It does seem possible that corruption in the ranks of his officers might well have caused these issues and were unknown to him....however that too remains unclear.

The outcome of the 'attack' in the darkness that night at the Alamo in what I have understood seems almost as chaotic in the troops attacking outside in approaching the walls and defenses as it was inside once breached.
The 'volley fire' of the Mexican forces turned out to be right at other troops who had deviated from one attack point and flooded into another, and as a result the fire (from the hip rather than normal shoulder rest) lethally struck their own troops. In the darkness, and shooting emptily in the general direction of the 'attack', the shots went low, instead of over the heads of preceding forces as should have been the case.

I am curious about the powder which was discovered on the 'Pelicano' vessel captured (300 barrels) which was said to have been under the proprietorship of a New Orleans dealer and apparently destined for Mexican forces. If this was the case, it begs the question, could this have been valued DuPont powder? If so, could this have been a source for Mexican powder, which might have been later adulterated by unscrupulous Mexican officials in replacing it and reselling etc.?

As you note, Mexico had the necessary resources for saltpeter, as well as sulfur (volcanic) and charcoal so certainly could produce powder as required. True, while fireworks powder is certainly with different properties, it is comprised of the same or similar components, which they seem to have mastered well.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... I am curious about the powder which was discovered on the 'Pelicano' vessel captured (300 barrels) which was said to have been under the proprietorship of a New Orleans dealer and apparently destined for Mexican forces. If this was the case, it begs the question, could this have been valued DuPont powder?...

This instead would be a "trilemma" Jim; the contraband powder riddle, not the the shifting of the battle result. What was the men ratio of attackers/defenders ... ten to one ? They say that in these things of sieges, are the defenders who have the odds in their favor, but hardly with these unequal proportions; bad powder, wrong volleys, whatever.
In such circumstances, Mexicans could well bear the luxury of several liabilities, but they also had some assets; their lancers, for one, whom actually slaughtered the last bunch of defenders, as it is well documented.
Speaking of liabilities and still a bit off (gunpowder) topic, did you know that, reportedly, the bayonet of the Baker, used by some Mexican forces, besides being a nuisance due to its weight which prevented aiming accuracy, tended to fall off the rifle as, after intense firing sequence, its holding device deformed ?


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[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

This instead would be a "trilemma" Jim; the contraband powder riddle, not the the shifting of the battle result. What was the men ratio of attackers/defenders ... ten to one ? They say that in these things of sieges, are the defenders who have the odds in their favor, but hardly with these unequal proportions; bad powder, wrong volleys, whatever.
In such circumstances, Mexicans could well bear the luxury of several liabilities, but they also had some assets; their lancers, for one, whom actually slaughtered the last bunch of defenders, as it is well documented.
Speaking of liabilities and still a bit off (gunpowder) topic, did you know that, reportedly, the bayonet of the Baker, used by some Mexican forces, besides being a nuisance due to its weight which prevented aiming accuracy, tended to fall off the rifle as, after intense firing sequence, its holding device deformed ?


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I think much of the issue historically with the Alamo is the very lack of agreement on so many details. It has never been entirely established as to how many Mexican troops were there, nor for that matter the accurate number of defenders. However, it seems now known that the attack made by Santa Anna was in early pre dawn hours, while most of the defenders were soundly asleep.
As well noted, Santa Anna had fully expected the rout of the defenders, and had strategically placed his lancers at locations where they would likely escape. Actually it was not just the last bunch of defenders, but there were at least two large groups and perhaps several smaller who attempted exiting the compound.
These actions should not be seen negatively as their emplacement was entirely overrun, and without any means of effective defense they had little other choice. They had been exhausted by the relentless artillery pounding by the Mexicans, which was more noise than anything else, but finally had ceased, no doubt part of Santa Annas plan. While the men had actually considered surrender, they could have escaped the day before as a number of open lines of escape were possible with the loosely positioned Mexican forces. If the defenders had been ready with loaded guns there may have been a better chance. Although the Alamo had 21 cannon, there was not only lack of ammunition, poor powder, but totally inadequate manpower for proper gun crews. To add to matters, there was sickness in the ranks (not just Bowie) and many men were in the hospital at the time of attack.

With the Mexican guns, even the accurate estimation of the models is unclear, but it is presumed these were India pattern muskets, which were sold off to the Mexican army after the end of the Napoleonic campaigns.
The Mexican forces termed these guns 'tecerlos' overall, unsure of translation.

While the Brown Bess' was issued at large to the rank and file, they did indeed use buck and ball (the buck was .35 cal) along with smaller than bore ball to account for fouled barrels.
I did reread the account by Joe (Travis' servant) and he was apparently describing his own wound, which was in his side, and from buckshot.

With the Baker rifles, it would appear that these were early models, and as they were with rifled barrels, the more elite cazadores received them and were trained in marksmanship. These were not in large number nor issued in an overall regulation, but those with them were skirmishers and snipers.
The first models (1 and 2) were issued with a huge sword bayonet (24") which added to the weight (over 9 lbs) and made the gun overall awkward.

It does not seem that the bayonet was broadly present with these, but it is noted that the trauma of muzzle blast would consistently weaken the hook and spring causing it to fall off. By the third model of these guns (1815) these bayonets were replaced by the familiar socket type.

These socket bayonets were used by the ranks with Brown Bess' with effect, and essentially in the melee of men trying to either load guns or get out of the chaos to regroup or escape within the compound. I have not found any specific mention of the Baker rifles with these huge sword bayonets thus far, but it seems doubtful there were many.

There is much we will never know about what really happened there, but recent publications have brought forth much very hard truth, though it mostly must be regarded as from reasonably to profoundly plausible.
Regardless, as in any battle, the valor of the men of all sides remains notably recognized in these difficult and terrible circumstances.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... However, it seems now known that the attack made by Santa Anna was in early pre dawn hours, while most of the defenders were soundly asleep...

The simplest of tactics .

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... With the Mexican guns, even the accurate estimation of the models is unclear ...

Not taking into account reportedly massive quantities of firearms left by the Spanish after independence, which seems not having been used, the basic equipment would have been British muskets with two different barrel lengths and the Baker.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...The Mexican forces termed these guns 'tecerlos' overall, unsure of translation...

I see it written 'tercerlos', but the correct (original) term is 'tercerola', as per Spanish dictionaries. This is the name they gave to a short version of the India pattern, which the Brits called 'Sergeants carbine'.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... With the Baker rifles, it would appear that these were early models, and as they were with rifled barrels, the more elite cazadores received them and were trained in marksmanship... The first models (1 and 2) were issued with a huge sword bayonet (24") which added to the weight (over 9 lbs) and made the gun overall awkward....

Heavy, ma non troppo, Jim ;
"Following the German style the Baker Rifle was designed to accept a sword-bayonet of some 24 inches long. Therefore the first bayonet for the Baker Rifle was a single-edged flat sword of 23 inches length. It was brass handled with a knuckle bow and clipped onto a muzzle bar. It weighed 2 pounds and, as later reports confirmed, created difficulties for firing when it was attached to the rifle muzzle".

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... I have not found any specific mention of the Baker rifles with these huge sword bayonets thus far, but it seems doubtful there were many...

Yet they existed ... but in fact not all rifles were equipped with them .

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... Regardless, as in any battle, the valor of the men of all sides remains notably recognized in these difficult and terrible circumstances...

Yes, a tribute to those who are the pawns in such games.

Attached:
Three of the few cannons that were left back in the Alamo site.


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[Jim McDougall]

Fernando, if I may say so, absolutely excellent research and constructive support as well as defining modifications to observations! Thank you, and I very much appreciate the itemized attention to particular details.

This is exactly the kind of interaction that is so helpful in discussions and helps so much in developing threads. I think that often people misperceive varying kinds of modifications as corrections but in fact they are essential additions in true fact finding discourse and not personally oriented.

Actually your additions are entirely helpful in adding important dimension to my findings, and key information I may have overlooked or inadvertently omitted.
Thank you so much, really learning far more than I had thought.....the material is so much deeper than I have realized, and your insights outstanding.

Teamwork in investigative research and discussion. Excellente' !!!

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Actually Joe was describing how Travis was shot; i also didn't figure it out in the first place, when i read (and transcribed) the article.

Oh.....uh....that's different! oops.
Actually it was my own misunderstanding.....I have read so much Alamo history and should have remembered that description by 'Joe'.
Still the point was that the Mexican powder was so poor that in many cases, the shot did not even penetrate. In the case of the actual final attack, it was pretty much irrelevant as the Mexican forces became almost a virtual mob infiltrating the compound.
As defenders awakened, startled and without time to even load their guns, they had no choice but to try to escape. In their haste to prevent this, the Mexicans simply resorted to their bayonets, which appears to have been the method by which most defenders died. Naturally, we have no way of knowing this unequivocally as (technically) there were no survivors. All we have is Mexican accounts and those of non combatants who did survive.