Definition of a Greek yataghan?

ariel · 11th August 2019, 01:35 PM

Kubur,
You are correct: there are Yataghans with blades of different length and configurations( curved, straight, recurved) and different handles. There was also a term yataghan bichaq, a short bladed, usually eared one.

The Ottomans were never as pedantic as the Japanese, with their “ katana- wakizashi-tanto” that differed only according to the length of the blade. And, to be even more anal-retentive, they had ko-wakizashi and o-wakizashi for the in-between cases.

The variability of Yataghans was bewildering, and because of that ( pure IMHO) we define a yataghan as such strictly on the basis of general gestalt: at least one of the parts is a typical one. Highly subjective, but dictated by the reality.

There are some sources that claim definition of Yataghans that served as swords ( kilij) to have their blade lengths only around and above 70 cm. The rest were allegedly yataghan bichaqs.

How about ko-yataghan kilij and o- yataghan bichaq. :-)

kronckew · 11th August 2019, 04:16 PM

The Katana boys get worked up about the slightest detail of construction,steel types, layering, patternings heat treatment boundary forms, and have a billion terms for them, before they even get to the mounts and grips. Bit like the Keris people here

Is a european yataghan bayonet a yataghan? or not, just because it was capable of being mounted on a rifle tends to put purist's knickers in a twist. How about a Yat bayonet turned back into a sword? (I bought a really cheap 1866 french yat bayonet, the Horn handled hunting sword yat fits it's scabbard perfectly.

I now have a yat bayonet spare...scabbards are harder to find than the bayonets...

Kubur · 11th August 2019, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

Is a european yataghan bayonet a yataghan?

Well the bayonet chassepot is described as yataghan.
Look I have a yataghan with a chassepot blade.
The circle is completed...

kronckew · 11th August 2019, 07:18 PM

Indeed! A rose by any other name would smell as sweet...

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck.

If it looks like a Yat, walks like a Yat and cuts like a Yat, it's a Yataghan.

Or I'm quackers...(maybe both

)

I have a Brass hilted infantry Yataghan with a double edged blade! Both edges sharp as heck too. cross section is a flattened rhombus.

ariel · 11th August 2019, 08:44 PM

I am a bit uneasy with that approach.
European “Yataghans” are not homogenous: one group belongs to rather faithful reproductions of the Ottoman weapon. Recall Labruna workshop in Naples, Manceaux in France, some old Zlatoust replicas.

But Chassepot bayonets are a different kettle of fish. Thehuy borrowed the idea of a recurved blade and attached to them completely foreign handles.

They are industrially manufactured regulation weapons devoid of any personality.

sfenoid13 · 13th August 2019, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

Indeed! A rose by any other name would smell as sweet...

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck.

If it looks like a Yat, walks like a Yat and cuts like a Yat, it's a Yataghan.

Or I'm quackers...(maybe both

)

I have a Brass hilted infantry Yataghan with a double edged blade! Both edges sharp as heck too. cross section is a flattened rhombus.

I think it’s just ignorant and insulting to call what you have a Yataghan! You must be joking! What you have is a joke not a Yataghan

)

ariel · 13th August 2019, 02:18 AM

How about lowering voltage?

sfenoid13 · 13th August 2019, 03:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

How about lowering voltage?

Sorry, I apologize. Didn’t mean to sound rude. I said what I said lightheartedly.
I now see that it came out harsh.

To me Yatagan is a very special weapon that encompasses many characteristics in one place and just because one or some of these characteristics are present in a similar item we can’t sinoly call the two the same name. It’s jusst a specific name for a specific weapon. Like calling a Winchester just a rifle with a barrel or magnum revolver is the same as a berets or something like that.
Again I’m sorry if my voltage went up too high

) didn’t mean to...

Ian · 13th August 2019, 02:22 AM

I think Wayne and Kubur were both joking. Let's not get too serious with names. That tends to take us into stormy waters.

P.S. I agree with Ariel. Our posts crossed.

11th August 2019, 04:16 PM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	The Katana boys get worked up about the slightest detail of construction,steel types, layering, patternings heat treatment boundary forms, and have a billion terms for them, before they even get to the mounts and grips. Bit like the Keris people here Is a european yataghan bayonet a yataghan? or not, just because it was capable of being mounted on a rifle tends to put purist's knickers in a twist. How about a Yat bayonet turned back into a sword? (I bought a really cheap 1866 french yat bayonet, the Horn handled hunting sword yat fits it's scabbard perfectly. I now have a yat bayonet spare...scabbards are harder to find than the bayonets... Attached Images

11th August 2019, 07:18 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	Indeed! A rose by any other name would smell as sweet... If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck. If it looks like a Yat, walks like a Yat and cuts like a Yat, it's a Yataghan. Or I'm quackers...(maybe both ) I have a Brass hilted infantry Yataghan with a double edged blade! Both edges sharp as heck too. cross section is a flattened rhombus. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 11th August 2019 at 07:30 PM.

11th August 2019, 08:44 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I am a bit uneasy with that approach. European “Yataghans” are not homogenous: one group belongs to rather faithful reproductions of the Ottoman weapon. Recall Labruna workshop in Naples, Manceaux in France, some old Zlatoust replicas. But Chassepot bayonets are a different kettle of fish. Thehuy borrowed the idea of a recurved blade and attached to them completely foreign handles. They are industrially manufactured regulation weapons devoid of any personality. Last edited by ariel; 11th August 2019 at 10:54 PM.

11th August 2019, 01:35 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Kubur, You are correct: there are Yataghans with blades of different length and configurations( curved, straight, recurved) and different handles. There was also a term yataghan bichaq, a short bladed, usually eared one. The Ottomans were never as pedantic as the Japanese, with their “ katana- wakizashi-tanto” that differed only according to the length of the blade. And, to be even more anal-retentive, they had ko-wakizashi and o-wakizashi for the in-between cases. The variability of Yataghans was bewildering, and because of that ( pure IMHO) we define a yataghan as such strictly on the basis of general gestalt: at least one of the parts is a typical one. Highly subjective, but dictated by the reality. There are some sources that claim definition of Yataghans that served as swords ( kilij) to have their blade lengths only around and above 70 cm. The rest were allegedly yataghan bichaqs. How about ko-yataghan kilij and o- yataghan bichaq. :-)

13th August 2019, 02:18 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	How about lowering voltage?

13th August 2019, 02:22 AM	#9
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,398	I think Wayne and Kubur were both joking. Let's not get too serious with names. That tends to take us into stormy waters. P.S. I agree with Ariel. Our posts crossed.