Frontier Arithmetic: The Afghan Jezail

Kubur · 8th August 2019, 07:35 AM

Hi Jim,
These guns are so - too - many on the market and as you said most of them are decorative.
Then even in the original and functionnal ones, you have some of them made with good and old original pieces English and Persian, then the others locally made but functionnal.
I have some serious doubt about your lock... Of course Rick will tell you everything about your gun.

kahnjar1 · 8th August 2019, 10:50 AM

Hi Jim,
Hope you have somewhere suitable to mount your Jezail in the "Bookmobile"!. Nice example by the way.....
Yes as Kubur says, Rick will no doubt be able to comment on the genuineness of the lock but if you can post a pic of the inside of the lock it will give a clearer idea of origin. Also does the touch hole line up with the bottom of the pan?
I have a similar Jezail which, though probably functional in terms of shooting, appears as if it could be, though not definitely, made for tourists, as it is also (like yours), prolificly decorated with MOP.
Pics of a couple of my Jezails.
Not to digress from the Jezail, there is another gun of similar shape which is also attributed to Afghanistan, though it's origins are more Sindhi/Baluchistan. It must be remembered that when we today discuss Afghani guns, that the borders have been many times redrawn since colonial days, and what was once part of Afghanistan is now part of Pakistan.
A couple of pics of these guns attached also.
Stu

Richard G · 8th August 2019, 12:07 PM

Jim,
Whether or not your lock is original EIC is difficult to say from the photo's. The main components look as if they could be; but if so it has definitely suffered some local tinkering in that all the screws would appear to be replacements.
Regards
Richard

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 9th August 2019, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Hi Jim,
Hope you have somewhere suitable to mount your Jezail in the "Bookmobile"!. Nice example by the way.....
Yes as Kubur says, Rick will no doubt be able to comment on the genuineness of the lock but if you can post a pic of the inside of the lock it will give a clearer idea of origin. Also does the touch hole line up with the bottom of the pan?
I have a similar Jezail which, though probably functional in terms of shooting, appears as if it could be, though not definitely, made for tourists, as it is also (like yours), prolificly decorated with MOP.
Pics of a couple of my Jezails.
Not to digress from the Jezail, there is another gun of similar shape which is also attributed to Afghanistan, though it's origins are more Sindhi/Baluchistan. It must be remembered that when we today discuss Afghani guns, that the borders have been many times redrawn since colonial days, and what was once part of Afghanistan is now part of Pakistan.
A couple of pics of these guns attached also.
Stu

That picture of the tribals with guns has at its centre Khuda Dad Khan of Kalat arguably the most murderous butcher that ever stalked the earth...

Kubur · 9th August 2019, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

That picture of the tribals with guns has at its centre Khuda Dad Khan of Kalat arguably the most murderous butcher that ever stalked the earth...

Warriors for sure

but
most murderous butcher that ever stalked the earth...

Is true or was it a British colonialist propaganda???

like the stories about the fuzzy fuzzy in Sudan or the Zulu in South Africa

more your ennemies look dangerous more your victories look greater...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 9th August 2019, 07:55 PM

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 9th August 2019, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Warriors for sure

but
most murderous butcher that ever stalked the earth...

Is true or was it a British colonialist propaganda???

like the stories about the fuzzy fuzzy in Sudan or the Zulu in South Africa

more your ennemies look dangerous more your victories look greater...

Please see http://www.travelbooksonline.com/asi...age1_1000.html

Well arguably... In a brilliant travelog I read he appears from about page 54 where he is described as Quote" His Highness Mir Khudadad, Khan of Kelat, is about sixty years old. He would be tall were it not for a decided stoop, which, together with a toothless lower jaw, gives him the appearance of being considerably more than his age. His complexion is very dark, even for a Baluch, and he wears a rusty black beard and moustaches, presumably dyed, from the streaks of red and white that run through them, and long, coarse pepper-and-salt locks streaming far below his shoulders. His personal appearance gave me anything but a favourable impression. The Khan has a scowling expression, keen, piercing black eyes, and a sharp hooked nose that reminded one forcibly of Cruikshank's picture of Fagin the Jew in "Oliver Twist." Unquote.

His story goes...ASLAMO ALAIKOOM. I'M MIR KHUDADAD KHAN. I'M THE KHAN OF KALAT. I WAS THE LAST KHAN TO HAVE ANY REAL AUTHORITY. I ASCENDED TO THE THRONE, IN 1857, WHEN I WAS A MERE BOY OF 10 ( CORRECTION: was 17). THOSE WERE TROUBLED TIMES, WITH MOST OF MY SARDARS OPENLY FLAUNTING MY AUTHORITY; AND THE BRITISH HOVERING IN AND AROUND MY LANDS. THEY WERE QUICK, TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIS SITUATION. ON ONE HAND WAS THE FULL MIGHT OF THE BRITISH ARMS AND ON THE OTHER, THE STRANGE INTRANSIGENCE OF MY OWN SARDARS. THERE WAS NO OTHER OPTION FOR ME, BUT TO AGREE TO A HUMILIATING AGREEMENT, WITH THE BRITISH, IN 1876. AN AGREEMENT I HATED, FROM THE CORE OF MY HEART. BY IT, THE BRITISH GAINED GREATER INFLUENCE IN LARGE PARTS OF MY KHANATE. I ONLY AGREED, BECAUSE NOT DOING SO MEANT THE END OF MY KHANATE, AS IT WAS. AND IT'S DISINTEGRATION INTO PETTY FIEFDOMS. I AGREED, SO THAT, WHEN SITUATION WAS MORE FAVORABLE , TO REVOKE IT. IN 1877, I EVEN ATTENDED THE "IMPERIAL ASSEMBLAGE" DARBAR AT DELHI, WERE QUEEN VICTORIA, WAS PROCLAIMED THE EMPRESS OF INDIA. I HATED THE INCREASING INFLUENCE OF THE BRITISH IN MY LANDS. THEY HATED MY INDEPENDENT NATURE. A TIME CAME IN 1893, WHEN, ON ALLEGATIONS OF KILLING MY OWN PRIME MINISTER AND OF WANTON CRUELTY, I WAS DEPOSED AND IN MY PLACE, MY YOUNGER BROTHER MIR MAHMOOD KHAN, WAS MADE THE NEW KHAN. I REIGNED FOR ABOUT 36 YEARS. I WAS CONFINED AT PISHIN TILL MY DEATH 21st May 1907. There are a couple of slide shows on Utube from which I took the passage above ...Indicating the somewhat lack of trust he reflected arguably indicating the general view that he could be a bit violent …

Returning to the weapons situation please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=Baluch where guns and swords are displayed variously.

kronckew · 9th August 2019, 08:09 PM

The Sudanese Hadendoa were referred to in racist insults as 'Fuzzy-Wuzzys'.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 9th August 2019, 08:53 PM

The Jezail.

To fully return to the weapon Please See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-aEWZrTibE

An excellent couple of points are brought out on calibres of these weapons and wear proving the age of originals opposed to newly made examples often seen in souks in Afghanistan today.

David R · 9th August 2019, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

The Sudanese Hadendoa were referred to in racist insults as 'Fuzzy-Wuzzys'.

Not so much an insult, more a semi- affectionate description. If you want to see insults, look up what 19th C squaddies called their officers.

Jim McDougall · 9th August 2019, 10:47 PM

Interesting notes on some of the figures in these regions in Afghanistan of the period, and it is understandable that emotions and perspectives run deep, especially as warfare and combative situations leave deep scars. I have not been nor served in Afghanistan, but I have a son in law; son and grandson who have, and I know Ibrahiim has.

With that I was even a bit apprehensive in sharing the gun I acquired with them, but keeping objective and toward the unique nature and character of the weapon itself has been the primary outcome, so hoping to maintain that.

Can anyone share more on the locks on these with closeups and insights on them so as to put together a bit of identification compendium?

kahnjar1 · 10th August 2019, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

That picture of the tribals with guns has at its centre Khuda Dad Khan of Kalat arguably the most murderous butcher that ever stalked the earth...

The caption to that pic describes the tribesmen as Balochs and dated as 1879.
Another print/woodcut herewith, presumably earlier as the guns appear to be matchlocks.
Stu

Kubur · 10th August 2019, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Not to digress from the Jezail, there is another gun of similar shape which is also attributed to Afghanistan, though it's origins are more Sindhi/Baluchistan.
Stu

I think you did, it's what i call a digression...

BTW amazing collection!

The so-called sindhi muskets are in fact Balutchi
I would like to see a sindhi with a sindhi gun...

To come back to Jim's musket
They are Pashtun, from the North Khyber pass...

kahnjar1 · 10th August 2019, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

I think you did, it's what i call a digression...

BTW amazing collection!

The so-called sindhi muskets are in fact Balutchi
I would like to see a sindhi with a sindhi gun...

To come back to Jim's musket
They are Pashtun, from the North Khyber pass...

Hi Kubur,
As stated in my earlier post to Jim's thread, the boundries have been much redrawn in later times. If you refer to the old map kindly posted by Ibrahiim, you will see that Baluchistan covered a significant area of what is now southern and eastern Afghanistan, and modern day Pakistan.....so,.... the so called Sindhi gun, whether Baloch or Sindi, can be legitimately included as an Afghan weapon. The tribal link (Pashtun) which you allude to is just that....tribal, which according to the more modern map which you have posted, covers many regions of Afghanistan and not just the Khyber Pass region.
Stu

Jim McDougall · 8th August 2019, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Jim,
These guns are so - too - many on the market and as you said most of them are decorative.
Then even in the original and functionnal ones, you have some of them made with good and old original pieces English and Persian, then the others locally made but functionnal.
I have some serious doubt about your lock... Of course Rick will tell you everything about your gun.

Thank you Kubur, Stu and Richard! I really appreciate this input as I know you guys are well seasoned in the collecting and study of these.

I have had doubts about the lock as well, but in comparing it to some of the examples known authentic it is remarkably well done if indeed a copy. As far as I have known the Afghan copies have never been that faithfully copied, only rendered interpretations. All of the screw positions etc. seem to line up, and the 'work' in adding this lock appears to use similar technique and even hardware to other Afghan components. While the profiled outlining on the perimeters of the lock seem slightly crude in joins, it seems most Afghan examples dont even bother with this detail.
These are just my estimations based on research to get up to speed as I cannot claim any great experience or knowledge on these.

Thank you for the historic and geographic insights as well Stu, and important to note how in flux these boundaries have been.

Stu,thank you for the great examples you posted! Those are beauties, and these guns are incredibly attractive. I take it the Sind examples have a long slender neck (or wrist?) on the stock.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 9th August 2019, 05:32 PM

Hi Jim, Another great subject very nicely placed so people can add their take on the subject.. Looking purely at the weapons I made a few observations noting a number of different locks from far and wide. This gun seems to have a few different names including camel gun and the Jezail or Jezzail seems dominant ...although there also seem to be different types some with the very hooked butt and others more straight... I have a few pictures here ~

Jim McDougall · 9th August 2019, 05:53 PM

Ibrahiim I'm so glad you came in on this!! and great photo images, thank you.
As one of few people I know who have actually been in Kabul and seen 'Chicken Street', I value your insights here.

As you note, these jezails (et al) I have hoped to focus here with the diverse experience and knowledge over many years here, and put together as much comprehensive material as possible to better identify them.

I am trying to gather as much as I can on the locks, which seem to be one of the key components in these, and determine the variations of EIC markings and names etc. From these, it would be good to compare spuriously produced Afghan examples.

Thank you for the input!!!

8th August 2019, 10:50 AM	#2
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,810	Hi Jim, Hope you have somewhere suitable to mount your Jezail in the "Bookmobile"!. Nice example by the way..... Yes as Kubur says, Rick will no doubt be able to comment on the genuineness of the lock but if you can post a pic of the inside of the lock it will give a clearer idea of origin. Also does the touch hole line up with the bottom of the pan? I have a similar Jezail which, though probably functional in terms of shooting, appears as if it could be, though not definitely, made for tourists, as it is also (like yours), prolificly decorated with MOP. Pics of a couple of my Jezails. Not to digress from the Jezail, there is another gun of similar shape which is also attributed to Afghanistan, though it's origins are more Sindhi/Baluchistan. It must be remembered that when we today discuss Afghani guns, that the borders have been many times redrawn since colonial days, and what was once part of Afghanistan is now part of Pakistan. A couple of pics of these guns attached also. Stu Attached Images Last edited by kahnjar1; 8th August 2019 at 11:08 AM.

9th August 2019, 07:55 PM	#6
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 9th August 2019 at 08:25 PM.

9th August 2019, 05:32 PM	#16
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Hi Jim, Another great subject very nicely placed so people can add their take on the subject.. Looking purely at the weapons I made a few observations noting a number of different locks from far and wide. This gun seems to have a few different names including camel gun and the Jezail or Jezzail seems dominant ...although there also seem to be different types some with the very hooked butt and others more straight... I have a few pictures here ~ Attached Images

8th August 2019, 07:35 AM	#1
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi Jim, These guns are so - too - many on the market and as you said most of them are decorative. Then even in the original and functionnal ones, you have some of them made with good and old original pieces English and Persian, then the others locally made but functionnal. I have some serious doubt about your lock... Of course Rick will tell you everything about your gun.

8th August 2019, 12:07 PM	#3
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 415	Jim, Whether or not your lock is original EIC is difficult to say from the photo's. The main components look as if they could be; but if so it has definitely suffered some local tinkering in that all the screws would appear to be replacements. Regards Richard

9th August 2019, 08:09 PM	#8
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,259	The Sudanese Hadendoa were referred to in racist insults as 'Fuzzy-Wuzzys'.

9th August 2019, 08:53 PM	#9
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	The Jezail. To fully return to the weapon Please See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-aEWZrTibE An excellent couple of points are brought out on calibres of these weapons and wear proving the age of originals opposed to newly made examples often seen in souks in Afghanistan today.

9th August 2019, 10:47 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,660	Interesting notes on some of the figures in these regions in Afghanistan of the period, and it is understandable that emotions and perspectives run deep, especially as warfare and combative situations leave deep scars. I have not been nor served in Afghanistan, but I have a son in law; son and grandson who have, and I know Ibrahiim has. With that I was even a bit apprehensive in sharing the gun I acquired with them, but keeping objective and toward the unique nature and character of the weapon itself has been the primary outcome, so hoping to maintain that. Can anyone share more on the locks on these with closeups and insights on them so as to put together a bit of identification compendium?

9th August 2019, 05:53 PM	#17
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,660	Ibrahiim I'm so glad you came in on this!! and great photo images, thank you. As one of few people I know who have actually been in Kabul and seen 'Chicken Street', I value your insights here. As you note, these jezails (et al) I have hoped to focus here with the diverse experience and knowledge over many years here, and put together as much comprehensive material as possible to better identify them. I am trying to gather as much as I can on the locks, which seem to be one of the key components in these, and determine the variations of EIC markings and names etc. From these, it would be good to compare spuriously produced Afghan examples. Thank you for the input!!!