Definition of a Greek yataghan?

Kubur · 29th July 2019, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

And, as a final point: where is the evidence that yataghan was truly invented by the Ottoman Anatolian Turks? Are yataghans truly Turkish?

I totally agree with your last point. Who said that yataghans were invented by Turks? In fact I was discussing the attribution to Greeks of some yataghans that might have been Turkish in fact.

To me yataghans were originally from the Balkans, despite - as Marius wrote - that we don't have any evidence of continuity since the Bronze Age. But we don't have either the evidence of the opposite. The absence of clues is not an evidence....

Cherry on top your article is very convincing or at least disturbing... But we all know that a lot of things came from the East... so why not...

ariel · 30th July 2019, 06:59 AM

The only problem with the “Balkan” theory is the complete absence of Yataghans or their depictions prior to the Ottoman invasion of that area.

mariusgmioc · 30th July 2019, 07:43 AM

In your first posting you make an excellent point Kubur. Couldn't agree more.

Yes, yatagans with their recurved blades are strikingly similar to the ancirnt Greek kopis or to the Iberian falcata. So one might assume they are derived or somehow evolved from them. However, between the emergence and use of Kopis and the emergence and use of yatagans more than 1000 (one thousand - more exactly about 1400) years have passed without any, historical evidence that the recurved blades were used (not even in Greece).

Then, after about 1400 of complete absence, the recurved blades emerged again with the Ottomans.

So it appears more likely that the Ottomans simply reinvented the recurved blade, rather than that they adapted or even were inspired by some long forgoten Greek weapon.

On the other hand, it is not completely unfathomable the following scenario:

Turkish swordsmith Yatagan Baba is working by his forge on a new shamshir blade when a new customer comes with an old corroded blade he dug out in his garden. He presents the blade to the swordsmith and asks him if he can do one like this for him. Yatagan Baba takes the old blade and observes it with curiosity. It is nothing like he has seen before. A strange shape with an even stranger curvature and the edge on the wrong side. Unknowing to him, he was holding an ancient Greek kopis (as the whole Mediteranean coast of Turkey was formerly a Greek colony). Immediately he agrees to make a similar blade curious himself as how does it handle. When ready, the new blade proves to be a remarkable weapon. More easy to handle than any shamshir and much more versatile, capable of delivering both hacking and stabbing blows. So no wonder the new shaped blade of Yatagan Baba becomes quickly very popular and so the yatagan was born.

The truth we will most likely never know, but we can only speculate and even argue about it...

30th July 2019, 07:43 AM	#3
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	In your first posting you make an excellent point Kubur. Couldn't agree more. Yes, yatagans with their recurved blades are strikingly similar to the ancirnt Greek kopis or to the Iberian falcata. So one might assume they are derived or somehow evolved from them. However, between the emergence and use of Kopis and the emergence and use of yatagans more than 1000 (one thousand - more exactly about 1400) years have passed without any, historical evidence that the recurved blades were used (not even in Greece). Then, after about 1400 of complete absence, the recurved blades emerged again with the Ottomans. So it appears more likely that the Ottomans simply reinvented the recurved blade, rather than that they adapted or even were inspired by some long forgoten Greek weapon. On the other hand, it is not completely unfathomable the following scenario: Turkish swordsmith Yatagan Baba is working by his forge on a new shamshir blade when a new customer comes with an old corroded blade he dug out in his garden. He presents the blade to the swordsmith and asks him if he can do one like this for him. Yatagan Baba takes the old blade and observes it with curiosity. It is nothing like he has seen before. A strange shape with an even stranger curvature and the edge on the wrong side. Unknowing to him, he was holding an ancient Greek kopis (as the whole Mediteranean coast of Turkey was formerly a Greek colony). Immediately he agrees to make a similar blade curious himself as how does it handle. When ready, the new blade proves to be a remarkable weapon. More easy to handle than any shamshir and much more versatile, capable of delivering both hacking and stabbing blows. So no wonder the new shaped blade of Yatagan Baba becomes quickly very popular and so the yatagan was born. The truth we will most likely never know, but we can only speculate and even argue about it... Last edited by mariusgmioc; 30th July 2019 at 06:55 PM.

30th July 2019, 06:59 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The only problem with the “Balkan” theory is the complete absence of Yataghans or their depictions prior to the Ottoman invasion of that area.