The Beginning:- A Question

Rick · 5th July 2019, 04:39 AM

I think it begins at the Ganja, Alan.
To my way of thinking such things end at the point.

Does a Phallus/Lingam begin at the tip?
Or does it begin at the base?

A. G. Maisey · 5th July 2019, 09:14 AM

Rick, my personal opinion is that all things begin at the beginning, and the beginning of everything is the foundation or the base, so I guess I'd have to say that a lingga begins at its base, which when you think about it seems a bit contradictory, but still, that's only my opinion.

Let's see what others might think, that's why I asked the question, to try to see if there is more or less a broad agreement on the beginning part of a keris blade

rasjid · 5th July 2019, 12:17 PM

My personal opinion is the Pesi, beginning of the blade. Means when its finish, or done as a Keris.

If during the making, maybe different? The mpu start making from the base area, gandik etc. Just above gonjo. Even when making the sogokan dan blumbangan, they started from the bottom area.

Rasjid

A. G. Maisey · 5th July 2019, 01:02 PM

OK, pesi?

Why not?

Its more or less in the same general area, the big end, so to speak, so that's two votes for the big end of the keris.

Bob A · 5th July 2019, 04:49 PM

Taking the blade as a whole, one way of approaching the question is to consider that the surface of the blade, in its entirety, is the beginning.

That's the part that interacts with the rest of the universe, if you will, and separates the keris from everything else; the interface between the object and its surroundings, the essence of its reality.

David · 5th July 2019, 10:01 PM

I'm not sure what i really think about this, but when i first read the question the first thing that popped into my head is that the blade begins where i come in contact with it since the keris is then an extension of the self. So i am inclined to say the pejetan/blumbangan area.

drdavid · 5th July 2019, 10:44 PM

Keeping in mind the lingam then the beginning/base should be where the pesi joins the blade. This might not include the gonjo which could be seen as an external addition to the lingam. The pesi itself could be seen as an internal attachment feature rather than part of the lingam. Shavism might dispute this interpretation of the lingam symbolism

A. G. Maisey · 5th July 2019, 10:49 PM

OK David, another vote for the Big End.

Bob, I like your idea, in fact I like it quite a lot, it seems to me to be an interpretation of the concept that nothing exists unless it is seen, that is, that everything only comes into existence at the point where it can be seen to exist, thus if it does not exist it has no beginning, and if no beginning, it also has no end.

You're not a cupboard philosopher are you Bob? This sounds exactly like like the sort of conversations I have with some of my more academic mates.

Its a great answer, but I was thinking in very simple terms, as I said when I asked the question, I'm just looking for opinions, and I'm not being technical.What I would like to achieve, if possible is a group opinion that is weighted more one way than the other,whichever way that might be.

So Bob, if you were to take off your philosopher's hat, and just take a simple layman's position, where do you think this object that we know as a keris might begin?

There it is, its laying on the table, we walk past, we notice it, where does it start?

5th July 2019, 04:39 AM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	I think it begins at the Ganja, Alan. To my way of thinking such things end at the point. Does a Phallus/Lingam begin at the tip? Or does it begin at the base? Last edited by Rick; 5th July 2019 at 04:52 AM.

5th July 2019, 01:02 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	OK, pesi? Why not? Its more or less in the same general area, the big end, so to speak, so that's two votes for the big end of the keris. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 6th July 2019 at 06:17 AM. Reason: consistency

5th July 2019, 09:14 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Rick, my personal opinion is that all things begin at the beginning, and the beginning of everything is the foundation or the base, so I guess I'd have to say that a lingga begins at its base, which when you think about it seems a bit contradictory, but still, that's only my opinion. Let's see what others might think, that's why I asked the question, to try to see if there is more or less a broad agreement on the beginning part of a keris blade

5th July 2019, 12:17 PM	#3
rasjid Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Jakarta - Indonesia Posts: 114	My personal opinion is the Pesi, beginning of the blade. Means when its finish, or done as a Keris. If during the making, maybe different? The mpu start making from the base area, gandik etc. Just above gonjo. Even when making the sogokan dan blumbangan, they started from the bottom area. Rasjid

5th July 2019, 04:49 PM	#5
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 436	Taking the blade as a whole, one way of approaching the question is to consider that the surface of the blade, in its entirety, is the beginning. That's the part that interacts with the rest of the universe, if you will, and separates the keris from everything else; the interface between the object and its surroundings, the essence of its reality.

5th July 2019, 10:01 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	I'm not sure what i really think about this, but when i first read the question the first thing that popped into my head is that the blade begins where i come in contact with it since the keris is then an extension of the self. So i am inclined to say the pejetan/blumbangan area.

5th July 2019, 10:44 PM	#7
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 372	Keeping in mind the lingam then the beginning/base should be where the pesi joins the blade. This might not include the gonjo which could be seen as an external addition to the lingam. The pesi itself could be seen as an internal attachment feature rather than part of the lingam. Shavism might dispute this interpretation of the lingam symbolism

5th July 2019, 10:49 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	OK David, another vote for the Big End. Bob, I like your idea, in fact I like it quite a lot, it seems to me to be an interpretation of the concept that nothing exists unless it is seen, that is, that everything only comes into existence at the point where it can be seen to exist, thus if it does not exist it has no beginning, and if no beginning, it also has no end. You're not a cupboard philosopher are you Bob? This sounds exactly like like the sort of conversations I have with some of my more academic mates. Its a great answer, but I was thinking in very simple terms, as I said when I asked the question, I'm just looking for opinions, and I'm not being technical.What I would like to achieve, if possible is a group opinion that is weighted more one way than the other,whichever way that might be. So Bob, if you were to take off your philosopher's hat, and just take a simple layman's position, where do you think this object that we know as a keris might begin? There it is, its laying on the table, we walk past, we notice it, where does it start?