Yet another wotsit.

kronckew · 25th June 2019, 07:59 AM

My Qing Dynasty 'hudie shuang dao' - Pirate swords. mid-18c before they started the double sword bit and they started getting wider and with off centre points like the 'modern' ones.

These are NOT huidi dao 'butterfly' knives as they are singletons instead of a matched pair with half hilts that fit the same scabbard. These have full oval x-section checkered grips and wider brass guards.

The top one is a thrusting version, the slightly longer bottom is a much thicker and heavier cutting one. they are unlike the wotsit. I think the guard shape is coincidental parallel evolution, still think it's a European custom item made to a specific requirement.

I̶ ̶s̶u̶s̶p̶e̶c̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶'̶r̶e̶d̶ ̶s̶h̶i̶p̶'̶ ̶r̶e̶f̶e̶r̶e̶n̶c̶e̶ ̶r̶e̶f̶e̶r̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶c̶o̶l̶o̶u̶r̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶i̶r̶ ̶l̶a̶t̶e̶s̶t̶ ̶v̶i̶c̶t̶i̶m̶'̶s̶ ̶d̶e̶c̶k̶s̶ ̶a̶f̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶y̶ ̶l̶e̶a̶v̶e̶.̶ ̶:̶(̶

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0I7lK2wOuZs

I knew I'd heard 'red boats' somewhere. I seem to recall visiting one in Hong Kong...memory fading tho. Red is the colour of good luck and happiness.

Cantonese 'red boats' were Showboata carrying Chinese Opera actors around the areas rivers, bit like the showboats on the Mississippi. They used Kung Fu in their styalised stories.

I made & added the chinese butterfly sword knot because I thought it fit.

Jim McDougall · 27th June 2019, 03:57 AM

Finally found this image of a Chinese (presumably martial artist) man with two of these long weapons used in pair.

kronckew · 27th June 2019, 07:50 AM

had to rename that to add the .jpg extension.

They look like a chinese sword breaker (Gan/Garn) posted elsewhere here.

A overly lengthy Chinese demo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SykZHMsCIfU

your painting from above and that breaker:

Jim McDougall · 28th June 2019, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

had to rename that to add the .jpg extension.

They look like a chinese sword breaker (Gan/Garn) posted elsewhere here.

A overly lengthy Chinese demo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SykZHMsCIfU

your painting from above and that breaker:

Wayne thank you for the adjustment

I sort of missed doing that .
Good observation on the breaker, and very well might be, I just saw a guy holding two straight 'bladed' things and thought of the two handed posture.

Great pic of the red 'showboat'!! Really appreciate the dimension of these weapons in these contexts.

kronckew · 28th June 2019, 07:40 PM

More red 'Show-boat' stuff:

Note the Wing Chun kung-fu ''mok yan chong'' practice tree on the bow of the model. The lady is one of the few Chinese opera stars of her age (most were actually men in drag) from the 1920's. She was the only one allowed to train with real weapons. Note the butterfly swords that had already degenerated to the off centre tip versions, pretty much restricted to slicing only, unlike the Qing singleton ones of mine above.

Will M · 28th June 2019, 09:12 PM

I've seen something quite similar before and it was a fireplace poker. It could well be part of a Victorian fireplace set. Surplus sword blades and hilts were repurposed for quite a few things from pokers to candle sticks as were bayonets.

Jim McDougall · 30th June 2019, 08:41 PM

While the look into Chinese martial arts and their weapons has led down some interesting cultural aspects of China, I wanted to add images of the weapon which I had in mind in considering this alternating quillon hilt guard.

This is a dadao, termed BaGwa Qi Dao, and of mid Qing style, believed to be from the period of the Buddhist Millenarian Rebellion (1813). Without elaborating on markings etc. it is the form that is key and suggests the influence for this interesting weapon.

While many items were of course fashioned into sundry implements, tools etc. such as fireplace pokers, candlesticks, and so on, the blade on this suggests more of an intended weapon with parrying capacity.

25th June 2019, 07:59 AM	#1
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	My Qing Dynasty 'hudie shuang dao' - Pirate swords. mid-18c before they started the double sword bit and they started getting wider and with off centre points like the 'modern' ones. These are NOT huidi dao 'butterfly' knives as they are singletons instead of a matched pair with half hilts that fit the same scabbard. These have full oval x-section checkered grips and wider brass guards. The top one is a thrusting version, the slightly longer bottom is a much thicker and heavier cutting one. they are unlike the wotsit. I think the guard shape is coincidental parallel evolution, still think it's a European custom item made to a specific requirement. I̶ ̶s̶u̶s̶p̶e̶c̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶'̶r̶e̶d̶ ̶s̶h̶i̶p̶'̶ ̶r̶e̶f̶e̶r̶e̶n̶c̶e̶ ̶r̶e̶f̶e̶r̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶c̶o̶l̶o̶u̶r̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶i̶r̶ ̶l̶a̶t̶e̶s̶t̶ ̶v̶i̶c̶t̶i̶m̶'̶s̶ ̶d̶e̶c̶k̶s̶ ̶a̶f̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶y̶ ̶l̶e̶a̶v̶e̶.̶ ̶:̶(̶ See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0I7lK2wOuZs I knew I'd heard 'red boats' somewhere. I seem to recall visiting one in Hong Kong...memory fading tho. Red is the colour of good luck and happiness. Cantonese 'red boats' were Showboata carrying Chinese Opera actors around the areas rivers, bit like the showboats on the Mississippi. They used Kung Fu in their styalised stories. I made & added the chinese butterfly sword knot because I thought it fit. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 26th June 2019 at 06:23 AM.

27th June 2019, 07:50 AM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	had to rename that to add the .jpg extension. They look like a chinese sword breaker (Gan/Garn) posted elsewhere here. A overly lengthy Chinese demo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SykZHMsCIfU your painting from above and that breaker: Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 27th June 2019 at 08:21 AM.

28th June 2019, 07:40 PM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	More red 'Show-boat' stuff: Note the Wing Chun kung-fu ''mok yan chong'' practice tree on the bow of the model. The lady is one of the few Chinese opera stars of her age (most were actually men in drag) from the 1920's. She was the only one allowed to train with real weapons. Note the butterfly swords that had already degenerated to the off centre tip versions, pretty much restricted to slicing only, unlike the Qing singleton ones of mine above. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 28th June 2019 at 08:24 PM.

30th June 2019, 08:41 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,285	Chinese martial arts hilt style alternating quillons While the look into Chinese martial arts and their weapons has led down some interesting cultural aspects of China, I wanted to add images of the weapon which I had in mind in considering this alternating quillon hilt guard. This is a dadao, termed BaGwa Qi Dao, and of mid Qing style, believed to be from the period of the Buddhist Millenarian Rebellion (1813). Without elaborating on markings etc. it is the form that is key and suggests the influence for this interesting weapon. While many items were of course fashioned into sundry implements, tools etc. such as fireplace pokers, candlesticks, and so on, the blade on this suggests more of an intended weapon with parrying capacity. Attached Images

28th June 2019, 09:12 PM	#6
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 395	I've seen something quite similar before and it was a fireplace poker. It could well be part of a Victorian fireplace set. Surplus sword blades and hilts were repurposed for quite a few things from pokers to candle sticks as were bayonets.