A katar is a katar till......

[Jim McDougall]

[QUOTE=Mercenary]If we try to understand what meant these terms by using secondary sources I can say that this is a completely useless exercise, a waste of time and repeating other people's mistakes.

From an etymological point of view, I already wrote before: in sanskrit "jamdhar" meant just "double edge" weapon. But for thousands of years, not only the form of words, but also their meaning and using often change.

So these are different tasks of trying to understand what Pant or Egerton meant, what did it mean in the 19th century, in the 16th or 10th.[/QUOTE





Thank you Mercenary, I had forgotten you had noted that etymology on jamadhar. As you say, words often take on almost entirely different meanings over time and through semantics and sometimes transliterations. In English, I know that many people would be stunned to see words meaning now, as opposed to the archaic meaning.

As you also well note, following secondary sources and beyond in trying to determine etymology and meanings is indeed often futile. But sometimes researchers can use developmental clues in sort of 'reverse engineering' a term which can offer a kind of 'trail'. This is the methodology used in what is known as historical detection, and actually can have productive results.
What is considered a waste of time to many, may be a productive route for some intrepid researchers, more tenacious than many of us.

[ariel]

I would be interested to know the original source of translating “ Jamdhar” from Sanskrit to English as “ double edged dagger”.
Was it a primary source or that of a European visitor concentrating on the appearance of a particular object and using it as a general term?

Indeed, all jamadhars ( katars) are double edged, but so are many other short-, and even long-bladed Indian weapons. Is chillanum a Jamadhar? A Bich’hwa? A Khanda?

[Mercenary]

Linguistics is an exact science as is mathematics. There is no need to explore unprofessional glossaries and dictionaries, interview modern Indians who have long been speaking a different language.

The Yamuna River is so named because it is the twin sister of the Ganges, because it flows in parallel.
YAM = twin
DHAR - it is "edge" even in Hindi. Up to now.
In Sanskrit was a some different word formation and such a word as "double edged" was possible in it.

How can we study Indian weapons without knowing the basics? Unfortunately we can...

[Jens Nordlunde]

I dont know which thoughts Pant had with the plate, and it is too late to ask him,, but it seems to me that he called almost all 'katars' for jamdahar, with a few exceptions, so I dont see why we cant stick to the name katar/jamdahar and leave out all the 'artistic' names.

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

I dont know which thoughts Pant had with the plate, and it is too late to ask him,, but it seems to me that he called almost all 'katars' for jamdahar, with a few exceptions, so I dont see why we cant stick to the name katar/jamdahar and leave out all the 'artistic' names.

I fully support your opinion. For 400-600 years available to us to study, such daggers were called interchangeably katar/jamdhar.

I am little more a supporter of the term "jamdhar" only because the Mughals themself distinguished only two types of Indian daggers (not counting the well-known for them "khanjars"): "jamdhar" (H-shaped) and "khapwa" - Indian dagger with a double bend blade, falsely known to us as chilanum ("falsely" until someone will be able to find confirmation of the actual use of this term. Although it is also associated with the verb "to cut", like most other Indian weapon terms, I have not seen evidence. But please don't tell me about the "glossaries").

The Mughals clearly distinguished these two types of daggers. The term "kattara" was apparently used to refer widely to Indian daggers as a whole.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

I dont know which thoughts Pant had with the plate, and it is too late to ask him,, but it seems to me that he called almost all 'katars' for jamdahar, with a few exceptions, so I dont see why we cant stick to the name katar/jamdahar and leave out all the 'artistic' names.

Agree wholeheartedly.
None of us (and all together) know Sanskrit or any other Indian language well enough to even think about our ability to perform a linguistical analysis. In the current state this is the worst example of " name game".


Let's agree that calling these strange implements katar or jamadhar is a personal choice and drop the historical and linguistical confabulations altogether until somebody smarter and professionally better trained than us performs a detailed and conclusive study.

Katar= jamadhar?

My vote: Aye!

[Nihl]

I agree with Ariel and (it seems) everyone else that this discussion is a bit silly. Whether we like it or not, in modern times, katar is staying as the "common" name for these punch daggers until a tv show or movie calls it a jam(a)dhar.

I also personally prefer the name jamdhar, partially because the (incorrect?) explanation that it means "tooth of death" sounds really cool to me, but also because when I say "katar" out loud it sounds a bit too close to "guitar" for comfort, so jamdhar is easier for me to say .

Actually on that note, though, Mercenary, as you seem rather knowledgeable in Hindi/Sanskrit, is the idea that jama = yama, the god of death, totally false? It's just that, personally, I could totally see yama becoming jama, and, with the edition of dhar, the word overall translating to some version of tooth/blade of death.

Finally, just to continue our discussion of odd katar forms, I've attached some examples that always looked unusual to me (and are hopefully discussion-provoking to you guys). The last one isn't technically a katar, but these odd "parrying weapons" seem to always be mounted with katar blades.

[fernando]

I wonder if these locals know why their place is called JAMDHAR


.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Nihl

I agree with Ariel and (it seems) everyone else that this discussion is a bit silly. Whether we like it or not, in modern times, katar is staying as the "common" name for these punch daggers until a tv show or movie calls it a jam(a)dhar.

I also personally prefer the name jamdhar, partially because the (incorrect?) explanation that it means "tooth of death" sounds really cool to me, but also because when I say "katar" out loud it sounds a bit too close to "guitar" for comfort, so jamdhar is easier for me to say .

Actually on that note, though, Mercenary, as you seem rather knowledgeable in Hindi/Sanskrit, is the idea that jama = yama, the god of death, totally false? It's just that, personally, I could totally see yama becoming jama, and, with the edition of dhar, the word overall translating to some version of tooth/blade of death.

Finally, just to continue our discussion of odd katar forms, I've attached some examples that always looked unusual to me (and are hopefully discussion-provoking to you guys). The last one isn't technically a katar, but these odd "parrying weapons" seem to always be mounted with katar blades.

Nihl,
I wanted to address your post directly as you have gratefully redirected away from the linguistics issues to continue the discussion on unusual jamadhar
Most intriguing is the one with five blades which indeed appear to be of jamadhar form, but mounted perpendicularly on what appears to be a 'vambrace'. These have apparently occurred with up to seven blades, but as usual, their manner of use is unclear.

I was surprised to see one offered in sale which showed the interior, which had a centrally situated transverse handle, and it seems suggested it was used in a slashing manner.
I had always though, with the flueret like fixtures at each end (with apertures which seemed for lashing or securing to the forearm) that perhaps these might have been used in a kind of fearsome armor attire......as seen in the curious figure (attached photo) bristling with blades. This somewhat well known photo seems to have fancifully labeled 'the executioner' but I cannot recall the source (I expect my mention of this will result in scathing rebuttal here) and even more specifically has been claimed to be from a durbar in Delhi. Again, I am simply recounting what I recall of this well known image without suggesting or implying accuracy or meaning or intent. It is for the purpose of illustrating 'possible' applications of such 'innovative weaponry'.
As noted, this would seem aside from the example of these with inner handle which obviously would not be worn on the forearm as a vambrace.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by ariel

......until somebody smarter and professionally better trained than us performs a detailed and conclusive study.

Who knows? Maybe you are that man. After all, Neo was The One to destroy the “Matrix”.......

Godspeed!