Opinion on this blade / sword

mariusgmioc · 2nd June 2019, 03:14 PM

Yet, both the shape of the hilt and the crossguard are anything but Ottoman.

Very confusing!

🤔

Jim McDougall · 2nd June 2019, 04:03 PM

While that scabbard tip is compellingly Ottoman, there remains an 'Oriental' feel to these mounts, and as I had mentioned the term 'oriental' took a broad scope in definition in the 18th into 19th c.
What has not been mentioned is the oval 'tsuba' type guard (I cannot think of the Chinese term). This curious hilt shape is also as noted, 'oriental' and I have seen it on Indonesian hilts.

I would strongly suspect this anomaly is a product of the heavily traded East Indies, where influences were melded in many ports of call, and blades from Europe were of course among commodities at hand.

Europeans had a strong desire for 'exotica' from these foreign ports, and often officers as well as sailors had weapons fashioned which brought certain degrees of joining of familiar elements of combined types. There were even Chinese artisans brought into Europe in the 18th c. during the enthusiastic desire for such oriental designs on swords, the shakudo and Tonquinese fashions.

One thing most curious in the repousse vegetal pattern on the scabbard is the lozenge pattern, which seems far more European than oriental or for that matter Ottoman. In the Ottoman matter however, this design is known to have been favored in Sudan in some decoration which had certain Islamic favor. Perhaps that might again lend to certain eastern archipelagos where Islamic influence may have been situated?

The thing we can be sure of, this is a European sabre blade of early 19th c.so the colonial and trade context suggests it was mounted in any number of locations, probably East Indies, where these oriental designs abound.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 2nd June 2019, 05:46 PM

It has a distinctive Oriental feel to it. I looked at http://mandarinmansion.com/antique-vietnamese-swords and one that stood out was ..the Officers sword at 19thC on web page …4th from top.(sold.)

Will M · 3rd June 2019, 03:44 PM

Something about the very good blade quality and fullering that says French to me.

Tim Simmons · 3rd June 2019, 03:47 PM

If nobody can make comparisons to Balkan swords, then for me it is Indochina where many SEA forms merge.

TVV · 3rd June 2019, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

If nobody can make comparisons to Balkan swords, then for me it is Indochina where many SEA forms merge.

The decorative motives on the scabbard and the hilt are Balkan though, you can see the same on countless little bichaqs.

ariel · 3rd June 2019, 07:30 PM

The "Dolphin head" on the scabbard indeed tilts the attribution toward Ottoman empire/Balkans.
But the contour of the handle and the thin " tsuba"-like guard somehow remind me of Tonkin Vietnam.

2nd June 2019, 03:14 PM	#1
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	Yet, both the shape of the hilt and the crossguard are anything but Ottoman. Very confusing! 🤔

2nd June 2019, 04:03 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,282	While that scabbard tip is compellingly Ottoman, there remains an 'Oriental' feel to these mounts, and as I had mentioned the term 'oriental' took a broad scope in definition in the 18th into 19th c. What has not been mentioned is the oval 'tsuba' type guard (I cannot think of the Chinese term). This curious hilt shape is also as noted, 'oriental' and I have seen it on Indonesian hilts. I would strongly suspect this anomaly is a product of the heavily traded East Indies, where influences were melded in many ports of call, and blades from Europe were of course among commodities at hand. Europeans had a strong desire for 'exotica' from these foreign ports, and often officers as well as sailors had weapons fashioned which brought certain degrees of joining of familiar elements of combined types. There were even Chinese artisans brought into Europe in the 18th c. during the enthusiastic desire for such oriental designs on swords, the shakudo and Tonquinese fashions. One thing most curious in the repousse vegetal pattern on the scabbard is the lozenge pattern, which seems far more European than oriental or for that matter Ottoman. In the Ottoman matter however, this design is known to have been favored in Sudan in some decoration which had certain Islamic favor. Perhaps that might again lend to certain eastern archipelagos where Islamic influence may have been situated? The thing we can be sure of, this is a European sabre blade of early 19th c.so the colonial and trade context suggests it was mounted in any number of locations, probably East Indies, where these oriental designs abound.

2nd June 2019, 05:46 PM	#3
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	It has a distinctive Oriental feel to it. I looked at http://mandarinmansion.com/antique-vietnamese-swords and one that stood out was ..the Officers sword at 19thC on web page …4th from top.(sold.)

3rd June 2019, 03:44 PM	#4
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 395	Something about the very good blade quality and fullering that says French to me.

3rd June 2019, 03:47 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	If nobody can make comparisons to Balkan swords, then for me it is Indochina where many SEA forms merge.

3rd June 2019, 07:30 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The "Dolphin head" on the scabbard indeed tilts the attribution toward Ottoman empire/Balkans. But the contour of the handle and the thin " tsuba"-like guard somehow remind me of Tonkin Vietnam.