The use of European RAPIER blades in Maratha Pata and Khanda swords

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Jim, your resilience in the rapier blade saga is no more than mine in opposing some points i find hard to digest in it. They say one can only be a stubborn if his neighbor also is .
Let me start by the Khanda. I now you have a vast library in your bookmobile and a heavy luggage of knowledge; whereas i only have two or three publications and an incipient experience, comparing to yours.
I will not put in my own wording my questioning your certainty towards the "whatever rapier blade format" fitting Indian blades, as well as their function. Instead i will bring a few authors to the stage, those i am sure you do know for ages, with the difference that i am potentially misinterpreting their texts.




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Fernando, the rapier blade in Indian swords 'dilemma' is one that I think requires a certain tenacity to resolve, and I think you and I share in stubbornness in looking at these kinds of matters. As Bob had mentioned on the thread where this rapier thing evolved, we have to keep an open mind as we investigate and discuss these topics.

Actually most of my 'vast' library is not here in the bookmobile, especially not STONE...….whose weight would certainly exceed the payload in this thing!

Thank you for your support in looking into this dilemma on rapier blades in India, and beginning with the khanda. I looked into "Arts of the Muslim Knight" ( B.Mohammed, ed. , Furissiya, 2009) and on p.24 notes,
"...very long thin blades single or double edged were also useful thrusting weapons, particularly for piercing armor. Such a sword worn in tandem with a sabre, is depicted on a 9th-10th c painting of a mounted warrior at Nishapur, but no Islamic double edged blades of this type survive before the Mamluk period. A unique late Timurid blade and an Ottoman sword with a tughra of Murad III( 1574-95) however give us some idea of the type in Europe known as estoc and which the Ottomans call mej."
The blades seemed to average around 100cm (36-39") .
Long thrusting blades remained in use in Europe, these were typically worn under the saddle ('tuck') and western blades or "...imitations of them were popular in India in the 16th and 17th c. They were known by the name 'firangi'".

In looking at the khanda, it seems like the blades 'typically' end in spatulate (pattisa) and rebated or rounded tips, so the idea of slashing rather than thrusting does seem characteristic . The khanda itself was a very early sword type of course, which was revamped in the 17th century as the 'Hindu basket hilt', but its use extended from not only Marathas, but to Rajputs, Sikhs and Mughals.
In Pant, there is another plate of khandas (attached here) where the thin rapier blade can be seen.
Also from "Arts of the Muslim Knight" (#66) attached is a picture of another khanda (firangi?) which is identified as a sabre(shamshir) ? and as a 'long sword with flexible blade for stabbing and thrusting'. While this is of course a 'basket hilt', it is clearly Mughal, as the inscriptions in koftgari are in naskh.

It would seem that obviously there were occasions for these 'basket hilt' swords, typically with extraordinarily long (over 3 ft. blades to nearly 4ft.) to have thin, flexible, narrow blades as in 'rapier'.
Clearly the Ottomans had some use for such thrusting blades, and India was not without influences from them.

Is it possible that these 'rapier' type bladed swords were secondary to other weapons and used as a 'tuck' (estoc) as required? With the notion of a secondary or auxiliary weapon seeming questionable, we are aware of maces which also have 'khanda' hilts. Perhaps the same concept of 'as required' weaponry being employed by the warrior, with several options?

Turning to the pata (gauntlet sword), it is often noted these used from horseback as a lance. Obviously that would seem improbable as the rider would be unhorsed with the weapon lodged in a victim. However, lances were not typically used as impaling weapons, but stabbing, thus the rider does not lose use of the weapon.

It would seem that these narrow blades on khanda or pata, though relatively unusual, would be used in similar fashion, stabbing, not run through thrusting.

[fernando]

Have you a rapier, or ever had one, Jim ?
This is not the game game; skip over the etymology of the term and just ponder on what a rapier is. Not easy though but then, nothing is exact, and each one is the judge on his own right.
Forget Capoferro, Pallavicini, John Clements and all mediatic Gurus. Paraphrasing Judge Potter Stewart; i don’t know what a rapier is, but i know it when i see it.
Actually as the term rapier became a idolized at its, resistant countries (like Portugal) preferred to keep calling espadas (swords).
The rapier was a civilian sword, although apparently it is recorded that military regiments also used it.
Its blade could (should) be rather thin, even at times extremely thin, some with blunt edges. Some say they should be 2,5 cms. wide, although that is already within the range of a narrow sword blade; 2 cms. maximum being more within typology. But in the opposite, their narrowest section could reach 1 cm. thus touching the estoc range. My school fencing example measures 13 m/m in its widest square cross section. Only two of my eight cup & swept hilt swords are rapiers, for what i consider. Only three or four out of Eduardo Nobre’s collection he considers rapiers, those with blades width + or – 1 cms.
One thing is a narrow blade, another is an extremely narrow one. Same goes for flexibility; true rapiers, to my understanding, could not be extremely flexible, with risk not to do the job, which is perforating; notwithstanding some authors would admit they could also be used in the cutting but then, you are allowed to do what you feel like, and don’t go to jail for that. Same as with the pata; some say it could be used as a lance, but i don’t buy that, thinking is only authors imagination. Pata blades were bought (imported) with an intended flexibility, in order to slash as much as possible in combat; what Caravana calls arm abduction movement and Mundy’s considers them to be able to severe a bull’s neck. Furthermore, while katars could be mounted with European blade fragments (not my term) entire blades for patas were made to perform the intended purpose. But let me not talk about katars in this thread, with risk to be reprimanded for posting off topic material .

[fernando]

C'mon Jim, don't misguide me ...
Isn't the Firangi a different thing; the Dhup or Sukhella, changing its name to Firangi when with an European imported blade? European but not English, as the Mahrathas were not in favour of their blades. Famous commander Angrey is quoted as saying that English blades were only fit to cut butter.
Tell me i am not wrong, Jim .

[ariel]

Khanda... What's in the name?
If we adhere to Stone and Rawson, then.. it is straight, has a a basket handle, spatulate tip, edge reinforcements with the resultant one-and-a half edge, etc.
However, here are 3 swords from the Elgood's Jodhpur book: all labeled as Khanda, all with " tulwar" 17 century handles, blades 16-17 century. One is single-edged, another double-edged, and a third one altogether saber-like. Obviously, he got the names from somewhere, and I tend to believe his veracity and judgement.
I was puzzled and asked him for an explanation. His response was that it was all in the local language use.

[ariel]

Kind of continuing ( this is more for Fernando).
Three Indian swords of mine.
Top to bottom:

Classical " Stone-Rawson-Pant's" Khanda

Khanda's old variant ( predecessor?), 18th century the latest, more likely 14-16th: it traditionally goes as Patissa in European sources.

The lowest one is Firangi with a European rapier blade ( see markings). In Deccan it was called Dhup, in Northern India it was Asa Shamshir.

And this opens yet another can of worms: apparently, the word " rapier" was used in Germany, whereas in Italy, Spain and France the very same sword was called spada, espada and epee ( all of which meant simply " sword" in their respective languages).
These cut-and-thrust weapons ( broadswords?) were popular during the late Renaissance times, but in ~ 17-18th centuries got out of fashion and were replaced by a purely thrusting smallsword ( "court sword", "dress sword"),with a needle-like blade based on newer fencing systems. Despite being still called rapiers, they were not suitable for Indian use where a cut was the king. A minor modification of the smallsword's blade gave birth to Colichemard. Having deeply blued, almost black, handle the same smallsword was called in Germany Trauerdegen ( "mourning sword"), which is still in use in Northern Germany during funeral processions.

The bottom line, not only in India, but in Europe as well one encounters same weapon called by different names depending on the language, location, intended function etc.

Likely, the same principle was operating in India with Jamadhar, Katar, Katara, Narsing-Moth and Maustika . Bich'hwa, Baku and Vinchu are established examle. Probably, Chillanum and Jamadhar Katari might have followed the same suit.
Sorry for digressing from the topic.

[fernando]

Thank you Ariel,
Do i see my point prevailing in that, associating the same blade mounting style to either Pata and Khanda, is a flaw ... such as extensive to what this thread title implies.
I do not have Pant or (this) Elgood; my sources may not be top stars but, you know, those who don't have a dog ... hunt with a cat
I never had a Khanda ... but once had a Firangi.

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[ariel]

Sorry Fernando, but I seem to miss the gist of your question. So let me reinforce mine.

My point was that our definition of Khanda according to Stone/Egerton is unnecessarily rigid. Perhaps down South Khandas were uniformly “ classic”, but up North the same word applied to dramatically different examples. Indeed, your reference to German’s book mentions Tulwar handles. Elgood goes even farther. To simplify: physical objects may or may not be identical in appearance, but languages rule.


I have seen Patas with European blades, but have never seen one with a Tulwar handle: always a basket one and riveted to the blade.

Thanks for you trust in my ability to understand Portuguese, but my entire vocabulary is limited to Bom Dios, Vinho Verde and Obregado. Said in this order and in rapid succession it always guaranteed me a drink in any bar:-)

[fernando]

Originally Posted by ariel

... ( this is more for Fernando).
... And this opens yet another can of worms: apparently, the word " rapier" was used in Germany, whereas in Italy, Spain and France the very same sword was called spada, espada and epee ( all of which meant simply " sword" in their respective languages).
... The bottom line, not only in India, but in Europe as well one encounters same weapon called by different names depending on the language, location, intended function etc....

I would definitely reduce the quantity of worms in what relates Europeans name ambiguities, when comparing to those in the Indian immense multicultural subcontinent. The rapier thing is an isolated case ... at least to support my theory .
As approached in my post #4, in a simplified manner, calling rapier a "sword" in the different idioms, was a reluctant way from fencing masters, or common man's uncertainty, to not address a weapon with such a 'fashionable' term, considering that its form in particularities was under competition, so to say.
I know your Portuguese is good enough to read that:
" É importante notar que a palavra "rapieira" não foi usada pelos mestres Portugueses, Italianos, Espanhóis, e Franceses durante o zénite desta arma, os termos spada, espada e épée (ou éspée) eram usados normalmente (palavras genéricas para "espada") ".
To add that, even nowadays, calling a determined sword a rapier, is so often no more than a fancy (read appealing) attribution.