Massive Spanish Naval Flintlock Blunderbuss Swivel Gun for comment

CSinTX · 2nd May 2019, 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

, but shotguns have a 'choke' to tighten the shot pattern if I understand.

I have years of shotgunning under my belt and my thought as well, at first. But then I remembered the most "open" choke throwing the widest pattern is designated "Cylinder". A cylinder choke is the same diameter as the bore. There is no flare in it. I am not aware of any choke that is more open than the bore. We know that constricting the bore will tighten the pattern but not so sure if flaring it would do the same. My feeling is that yes it would but it would need to be gradual so that the shot load could be disrupted by the expanding gases as it traveled forward in the barrel. Exactly as this one is designed.

corrado26 · 2nd May 2019, 07:31 AM

Does anyone know what the letters "RM" on the lockplate stand for? In case the gun should be Spanish, it should be "RA" for Real Armada" as far as I know.
corrado26

CutlassCollector · 2nd May 2019, 10:43 AM

Beautiful blunderbuss.

I'm with the pirate captain on the use of the blunderbuss but unfortunately both D.R Baxter (Blunderbusses) and James Foreman (The Blunderbuss 1500 - 1900) disagree. The latter even citing NRA tests that indicate a spread of one yard at 50 feet and it being linked to the bore of the barrel not the shape of the opening. These guns were probably more likely used at closer range than that.
Both consider the bell mouth to be an aid to loading a large number of balls and large powder charge quickly from atop a coach, a boat or ship.

Shotguns chokes can restrict the pattern of a blast but not create directions not already existing.

Using junk except in dire emergency was not a good idea due to danger of diverse shapes jamming on firing. They also mention the risk of ramming junk iron down an iron or steel barrel and the danger of a spark igniting the main charge.
That may account for the number of one handed pirates!

fernando · 2nd May 2019, 10:52 AM

Guys, we must have reading different books. In the numerous ones i came across, the major conclusion is that shot spread of blunderbusses is quoted as being a myth.
I understand this may not be a only black & white situation and indeed a controversial subject but ...

Let us pick a couple extracts that are at hand ...

From Melvin Fanagan, called Myths of the Blunderbuss:
Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, added to the blunderbuss’ description: “The National Rifle Association carried out some experiments with antique blunderbusses in the 1960s and discovered that the flared barrel had no effect on the spread of shot; shot did spread as in any other shotgun, but not to the same extent” .

Another:
“Even after he has become a collector and student of old weapons, this individual will probably continue to believe that the spread of shot from a blunderbuss is directly related to the shape and flare of the muzzle.”

Yet another:
“In a blunderbuss, the breech caliber is the critical one. It determines the space where the powder and balls are confined. Despite the flare of the muzzle, the breech calibers of most blunderbusses are roughly comparable with contemporary muskets. Most .67 caliber muskets of the period, when firing buckshot loads, used about 12 balls with powder charges of 120 grains.
Muskets of .75 caliber fired slightly bigger charges, usually 15 balls and 130 0r 140 grains of powder.”
Peterson’s evaluation of the shot patterns was, “In view of these tests, it seems safe to state that the bell of the blunderbuss had very little effect on the dispersion of the shot. It quite possibly was useful when loading a handful of small balls in action or on a moving coach; and it may have had a tremendous psychological effect on those who found one pointing their way, but that was about all.”

CutlassCollector · 2nd May 2019, 08:26 PM

[QUOTE=fernando]Guys, we must have reading different books. In the numerous ones i came across, the major conclusion is that shot spread of blunderbusses is quoted as being a myth.

Just to be clear both the books I mentioned are in complete agreement with you fernando - the spread at 50 ft was down to the barrel bore not the shape. I guess my words were badly chosen if you thought otherwise.

fernando · 3rd May 2019, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CutlassCollector

... Just to be clear both the books I mentioned are in complete agreement with you fernando - the spread at 50 ft was down to the barrel bore not the shape. I guess my words were badly chosen if you thought otherwise...

Oh no, obviously i was not referring to you

.

MacCathain · 2nd May 2019, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

Does anyone know what the letters "RM" on the lockplate stand for? In case the gun should be Spanish, it should be "RA" for Real Armada" as far as I know.
corrado26

It may be for República Mexicana and represents the Mexican government's ownership. However, I can't envision a crown going over well in a republic, so I'm probably wrong.

corrado26 · 2nd May 2019, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MacCathain

It may be for República Mexicana and represents the Mexican government's ownership. However, I can't envision a crown going over well in a republic, so I'm probably wrong.

The crown is certainly not possible with a republic, but perhaps it stands for "Real Marina" in Italian language?
corrado26

Jim McDougall · 2nd May 2019, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSinTX

I have years of shotgunning under my belt and my thought as well, at first. But then I remembered the most "open" choke throwing the widest pattern is designated "Cylinder". A cylinder choke is the same diameter as the bore. There is no flare in it. I am not aware of any choke that is more open than the bore. We know that constricting the bore will tighten the pattern but not so sure if flaring it would do the same. My feeling is that yes it would but it would need to be gradual so that the shot load could be disrupted by the expanding gases as it traveled forward in the barrel. Exactly as this one is designed.

Thanks very much, very nicely explained and that makes perfect sense. It is always good to hear this kind of perspective from first hand experience.

2nd May 2019, 07:31 AM	#2
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,237	Does anyone know what the letters "RM" on the lockplate stand for? In case the gun should be Spanish, it should be "RA" for Real Armada" as far as I know. corrado26

2nd May 2019, 10:43 AM	#3
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 366	Beautiful blunderbuss. I'm with the pirate captain on the use of the blunderbuss but unfortunately both D.R Baxter (Blunderbusses) and James Foreman (The Blunderbuss 1500 - 1900) disagree. The latter even citing NRA tests that indicate a spread of one yard at 50 feet and it being linked to the bore of the barrel not the shape of the opening. These guns were probably more likely used at closer range than that. Both consider the bell mouth to be an aid to loading a large number of balls and large powder charge quickly from atop a coach, a boat or ship. Shotguns chokes can restrict the pattern of a blast but not create directions not already existing. Using junk except in dire emergency was not a good idea due to danger of diverse shapes jamming on firing. They also mention the risk of ramming junk iron down an iron or steel barrel and the danger of a spark igniting the main charge. That may account for the number of one handed pirates!

2nd May 2019, 10:52 AM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Guys, we must have reading different books. In the numerous ones i came across, the major conclusion is that shot spread of blunderbusses is quoted as being a myth. I understand this may not be a only black & white situation and indeed a controversial subject but ... Let us pick a couple extracts that are at hand ... From Melvin Fanagan, called Myths of the Blunderbuss: Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, added to the blunderbuss’ description: “The National Rifle Association carried out some experiments with antique blunderbusses in the 1960s and discovered that the flared barrel had no effect on the spread of shot; shot did spread as in any other shotgun, but not to the same extent” . Another: “Even after he has become a collector and student of old weapons, this individual will probably continue to believe that the spread of shot from a blunderbuss is directly related to the shape and flare of the muzzle.” Yet another: “In a blunderbuss, the breech caliber is the critical one. It determines the space where the powder and balls are confined. Despite the flare of the muzzle, the breech calibers of most blunderbusses are roughly comparable with contemporary muskets. Most .67 caliber muskets of the period, when firing buckshot loads, used about 12 balls with powder charges of 120 grains. Muskets of .75 caliber fired slightly bigger charges, usually 15 balls and 130 0r 140 grains of powder.” Peterson’s evaluation of the shot patterns was, “In view of these tests, it seems safe to state that the bell of the blunderbuss had very little effect on the dispersion of the shot. It quite possibly was useful when loading a handful of small balls in action or on a moving coach; and it may have had a tremendous psychological effect on those who found one pointing their way, but that was about all.”

2nd May 2019, 08:26 PM	#5
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 366	[QUOTE=fernando]Guys, we must have reading different books. In the numerous ones i came across, the major conclusion is that shot spread of blunderbusses is quoted as being a myth. Just to be clear both the books I mentioned are in complete agreement with you fernando - the spread at 50 ft was down to the barrel bore not the shape. I guess my words were badly chosen if you thought otherwise.