Translation please

Victrix · 25th March 2019, 10:56 PM

Ahem, do we have any Arabic reader here who can oblige the original post and translate the writing on the blade? It might not even be real Arabic. It could be imaginary pseudo-Arabic as seen on some Hungarian ”trophy” blades in Ottoman style. Also, is the Roman style arms and armour trophy stand engraving on the hilt common on Ottoman arms? I thought Islamic art typically is abstract or geometric. Hungary on the other hand likes to use Roman imagery as it was once the Roman province of Pannonia. Seems to me that Jim is not far off the mark (no pun intended!)

ariel · 26th March 2019, 12:33 AM

Personally, I see nothing Russian or Caucasian here. IMHO ,this is a garden variety Ottoman officer 19-20 century sword with perhaps a “blingy” silver handle ( or just silver plated). The inscription is most likely in old Turkish that is unreadable by modern Turks : at least half a dozen of my colleagues from Turkey and their highly educated kin in Turkey just shrugged their shoulders. Perhaps, a university professor of old Ottoman might be of help.

Decorative style is not informative: most decorated Ottoman swords of that period were embellished in “Turkish Baroque” style. And if it’s ain’t Baroque, don’t fix it:-)

Victrix · 26th March 2019, 10:40 AM

Well, then it could be just about anything... Regarding Ottoman Trophy of Arms, I found this in Wiki ”Every sultan of the Ottoman Empire had his own monogram, called the tughra, which served as a royal symbol. A coat of arms in the European heraldic sense was created in the late 19th century. Hampton Court requested from the Ottoman Empire the coat of arms to be included in their collection. As the coat of arms had not been previously used in the Ottoman Empire, it was designed after this request, and the final design was adopted by Sultan Abdul Hamid II on 17 April 1882.” See picture attached. Something like this could be engraved on the hilt. The engraving at the top of the trophy of arms on the hilt could just be a tughra?

Kubur · 26th March 2019, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

Well, then it could be just about anything... Regarding Ottoman Trophy of Arms, I found this in Wiki ”Every sultan of the Ottoman Empire had his own monogram, called the tughra, which served as a royal symbol. A coat of arms in the European heraldic sense was created in the late 19th century. Hampton Court requested from the Ottoman Empire the coat of arms to be included in their collection. As the coat of arms had not been previously used in the Ottoman Empire, it was designed after this request, and the final design was adopted by Sultan Abdul Hamid II on 17 April 1882.” See picture attached. Something like this could be engraved on the hilt. The engraving at the top of the trophy of arms on the hilt could just be a tughra?

Of course it is!

Kubur · 26th March 2019, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Decorative style is not informative: most decorated Ottoman swords of that period were embellished in “Turkish Baroque” style. And if it’s ain’t Baroque, don’t fix it:-)

Yes it's baroque Ariel again right - OMG - you are the new guru...

Jim McDougall · 26th March 2019, 07:03 PM

Guys, I am amazed!! You really got this figured out perfectly.
Ariel, your 'baroque' thing was priceless!!!!

So Kubur, now I see the tughra in that uh, decorative web on the guard. I completely missed it .

While we know this is Ottoman and 19th c. what about those curious hanging mounts on the scabbard, distinctly like those on latter 19th c shashka scabbard. I cant think of another use of those mounts, I thought Ottomans used the European type dual rings .

ariel · 26th March 2019, 10:53 PM

Jim,
Caucasian shashkas were worn edge up. Here hanging rings are located on the concave side of the scabbard: this sword was worn edge down.

Kubur · 27th March 2019, 12:06 AM

Yep
look and please look at the silver hilt much more simple than the one posted

ariel · 27th March 2019, 04:44 AM

It is simpler, but at least it has intact langets:-)

26th March 2019, 10:40 AM	#3
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 763	Well, then it could be just about anything... Regarding Ottoman Trophy of Arms, I found this in Wiki ”Every sultan of the Ottoman Empire had his own monogram, called the tughra, which served as a royal symbol. A coat of arms in the European heraldic sense was created in the late 19th century. Hampton Court requested from the Ottoman Empire the coat of arms to be included in their collection. As the coat of arms had not been previously used in the Ottoman Empire, it was designed after this request, and the final design was adopted by Sultan Abdul Hamid II on 17 April 1882.” See picture attached. Something like this could be engraved on the hilt. The engraving at the top of the trophy of arms on the hilt could just be a tughra? Attached Images Last edited by Victrix; 26th March 2019 at 10:51 AM.

27th March 2019, 12:06 AM	#8
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Yep look and please look at the silver hilt much more simple than the one posted Attached Images

25th March 2019, 10:56 PM	#1
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 763	Ahem, do we have any Arabic reader here who can oblige the original post and translate the writing on the blade? It might not even be real Arabic. It could be imaginary pseudo-Arabic as seen on some Hungarian ”trophy” blades in Ottoman style. Also, is the Roman style arms and armour trophy stand engraving on the hilt common on Ottoman arms? I thought Islamic art typically is abstract or geometric. Hungary on the other hand likes to use Roman imagery as it was once the Roman province of Pannonia. Seems to me that Jim is not far off the mark (no pun intended!)

26th March 2019, 12:33 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Personally, I see nothing Russian or Caucasian here. IMHO ,this is a garden variety Ottoman officer 19-20 century sword with perhaps a “blingy” silver handle ( or just silver plated). The inscription is most likely in old Turkish that is unreadable by modern Turks : at least half a dozen of my colleagues from Turkey and their highly educated kin in Turkey just shrugged their shoulders. Perhaps, a university professor of old Ottoman might be of help. Decorative style is not informative: most decorated Ottoman swords of that period were embellished in “Turkish Baroque” style. And if it’s ain’t Baroque, don’t fix it:-)

26th March 2019, 07:03 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Guys, I am amazed!! You really got this figured out perfectly. Ariel, your 'baroque' thing was priceless!!!! So Kubur, now I see the tughra in that uh, decorative web on the guard. I completely missed it . While we know this is Ottoman and 19th c. what about those curious hanging mounts on the scabbard, distinctly like those on latter 19th c shashka scabbard. I cant think of another use of those mounts, I thought Ottomans used the European type dual rings .

26th March 2019, 10:53 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jim, Caucasian shashkas were worn edge up. Here hanging rings are located on the concave side of the scabbard: this sword was worn edge down.

27th March 2019, 04:44 AM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	It is simpler, but at least it has intact langets:-)