Translation please

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The device on the blade, while mindful of Ottoman tughra, appears to be intended in that sense, but not following typical convention.
.

Really, I'm not sure about that. It's typical to me.
I don't know how you can say that...

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I
it reminds me of instances of 'trophy' blades mounted in their cultural sphere.

Finally one point where we agree
This kind of sword has very often trophy blades, very often from Caucasian shashka or others

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Really, I'm not sure about that. It's typical to me.
I don't know how you can say that...




Finally one point where we agree
This kind of sword has very often trophy blades, very often from Caucasian shashka or others

Kubur, I am extremely pleased that we have 'one' point of agreement! I cannot resist feeling a sense of triumph. There are of course instances of trophy blades in many swords but Russian ones I have seen come to mind here, with what seems to be perhaps an East European blade.


On the tughra, I think we have here a matter of Rorschach perspective.

While these symbolic devices used as personal seals and monogram or heraldic emblems, which have long Turkic history, are regarded as Ottoman, they were widely used in other cases in degree following the Ottoman style.


In looking at the systemic dynamics of the 'tughra', which to me always looked a bit like an amoeba (in a sense, and leaning toward the psychological context of course, as per Rorschach).......this device does not seem to follow 'tughra' conventions'.

Perhaps this was how I might have said what you may have regarded as tughra heresy and why I thought since this sword seemed 'out of direct Ottoman sphere' the device might be a variant recalling the tughra.


Obviously I do not share your expertise on these, so I hope you might enlighten me (and others reading) on the spectrum of tughra variants which are outside the set patterns I have attached.


Also attached is the device on the sword posted which looks more like an 'ace of clubs' in the playing card suit system.

[Kubur]

Hi Jim,

You will be happy: I dont see any tughra on this blade... do you?

You have more imagination than me!

I was talking about the real tughras on the silver...

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Jim,

You will be happy: I dont see any tughra on this blade... do you?

You have more imagination than me!

I was talking about the real tughras on the silver...

Ahah!!! We have the dreaded miscommunication I thought you were talking about the device on the blade as I had mentioned it did not look like a typical tughra.......so agreed, I dont see a 'conventional' tughra.

Now you are pointing out these features in the motif of the silvered material, which I think you might be regarding as 'hallmarks' (?) not tughras, am I correct? I cannot make them out (old eyes). I had not thought of tughras being placed as part of decorative motif in a hilt.

It is often hard communicating these things in specialized terms and phrases which are essentially foreign (at least to me) so thank you for patience in getting on the same page.

[Tim Simmons]

I do not mean to be aggressive in anyway . Hyping up poor quality really serves no good. It stunts development , research , learning and worst of all art appreciation. Sorry if that sounds hard but do you really want to push prices up for lesser work.

[TVV]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I do not mean to be aggressive in anyway . Hyping up poor quality really serves no good. It stunts development , research , learning and worst of all art appreciation. Sorry if that sounds hard but do you really want to push prices up for lesser work.

Tim, are you rating the quality of the silver work on this sword compared to other late 19th century Ottoman military swords, or against master pieces of silversmiths from around the world and of all ages?

[Tim Simmons]

I this case the craftsmanship, laying out and technique of execution of the overall design. The formal layout out of the floral motifs on the cross guard are rather rough and the some what better floral motifs in the centre are poorly bordered. Work is governed by many circumstances , environments, technologies and cultures . I also mentioned war as a disruptive force on manufacturing. However having in mind the origins of this piece and the fact that silver a material with trappings of status the work is poor. A person could write volumes on art and function, art society and culture. For us looking and research is best. This is an okay sword with okay-ish decoration just because it is silver does not make poor work good.

[Jim McDougall]

Actually I had not even considered monetary issues or those kinds of values myself, and naturally I cannot speak for others. My only concern was that the quality or lack thereof may be related to the work of artisans working in regions outside the main centers, whose skills and tools might be of lesser degree. This would be a factor in estimating the age, provenance and other matters in identifying the weapon.

I know that with colonial weapons there are obvious issues with quality, materials and workmanship not to mention components used in refurbishing which are not necessarily compatible aesthetically. Such items have certain inherent values historically which of course do not coincide with valuation of discerning collectors typically.


As Teodor has well noted, comparisons must be specified categorically to better understand the relevance of the observation.