Kaskara

roanoa · 12th March 2019, 03:23 PM

Martin, I like your sense of humor.... I doubt, though, that too many people would even know about the AGIP lion, which, of course, has SIX legs....

Jim McDougall · 12th March 2019, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roanoa

Martin, I like your sense of humor.... I doubt, though, that too many people would even know about the AGIP lion, which, of course, has SIX legs....

Good one guys! It seems I learn something (a lot of things) new every day around here! I had never heard of this 6 legged lion.....what is that about?

Iain, very much agree, this definitely seems to be a European stamp but I cannot place it among varied Solingen marks. Perhaps it is among the many which become prevalent among knife makers etc later in the 19th c.

I have always wondered, and possibly you might have encountered or considered, that importers in entrepots in Africa might have had stamps as used in Europe.
We always look to the quality of such marks on blades hoping to determine if European or native, but some recurring marks seem of European quality while oriented atypically on blades.

Edster · 12th March 2019, 05:19 PM

Agip/ENI Logo. It's actually a dog according to company site.

Jim McDougall · 12th March 2019, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edster

Agip/ENI Logo. It's actually a dog according to company site.

Thanks Ed. I think when we get into stylized animals in symbolic devices etc. it gets pretty hard to determine just what they actually are intended to represent. This looks like it has a mane.

I recall studying the mark of Toledo swordsmith Julian Del Rey from 17th c. which to me looked like a rampant lion. In colloquial terms (I think beginning from a reference in Cervantes) it began to be called the 'perillo' (=little dog).Possibly an allusion to the famed 'running wolf' of Passau on German blades.

I guess as per Rorschach its whatever each person perceives

Still dont get the six legs.

Jim McDougall · 13th March 2019, 01:14 AM

Getting back to these deeply stamped lions, while the quality and character of the mark seems to indicate a European stamp, I still cannot find anything among known European marks that corresponds to a lion in this stance.

Also the depth of the stamp is much like the cross and orb cases seen here, but the cross and orb was always in blade center not forte. Also the cross is atypical and not European. This brings me again to the idea that perhaps there were stamps used by artisans in Sudanese or other entrepots that brought in blades whether trade or other native makers.

The similarity and configuration of these three examples with stamped lions in the attachments....especially the center and bottom, both on kaskara. The Kassalawi makers it seems had stamps, which degenerated over time. Pm the one with the flower (?) it pretty well matches the other lion which is by itself.

William Fox · 13th March 2019, 01:47 AM

Jim, the centre and bottom blades both seem to have a similar configuration in edge geometry and fuller position. And both lions are stamped at roughly the same place on the blade. Must be a connection in origin.

Does anyone have any knowledge of the scabbard and scabbard embellishments of kaskara? I wonder if those little tassels and added details represent tribe, region or status?

Edster · 13th March 2019, 03:27 AM

Jim, Both William's sword and Stephen Wood's sword and markings from this 2009 post are virtually identical.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10043

Both have a cross & orb and "lion" as noted by Stephen in Pallme (Travels in Kordofan, p.298) and attributed as Austrian imports. (William's has the 4-pointed mark (applied by two strikes) in front of the lion that Stephen's does not. This mark is unique to me, and I wonder why it is on William's and not Stephen's.) Also, I agree that these marks are not from Kull.

Both swords have a more rounded point, I think more in common with imports than the more common pointed locally forged examples. Thus, I tend to agree that both blades are imports, but of unknown manufacture.

If the cross & orbs are actually Funj sticks & drums property marks these swords could be from at least the early 19th Cent (pre 1821). That may be why the common marks are unknown.

The "lion" is rather stylized with internal fur, but the open mouth, curled tail and especially the rump look unnatural to me.

William, the scabbard looks rather recent to me, certainly not as old as the sword. Also, most are dyed a reddish brown rather than black. I don't think the scribbed designs are indicative and the strings are as far as I know just for looks.

Regards,
Ed

12th March 2019, 05:19 PM	#3
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 415	Agip/ENI Logo. It's actually a dog according to company site. Attached Images

13th March 2019, 01:14 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Getting back to these deeply stamped lions, while the quality and character of the mark seems to indicate a European stamp, I still cannot find anything among known European marks that corresponds to a lion in this stance. Also the depth of the stamp is much like the cross and orb cases seen here, but the cross and orb was always in blade center not forte. Also the cross is atypical and not European. This brings me again to the idea that perhaps there were stamps used by artisans in Sudanese or other entrepots that brought in blades whether trade or other native makers. The similarity and configuration of these three examples with stamped lions in the attachments....especially the center and bottom, both on kaskara. The Kassalawi makers it seems had stamps, which degenerated over time. Pm the one with the flower (?) it pretty well matches the other lion which is by itself. Attached Images

12th March 2019, 03:23 PM	#1
roanoa Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 241	Martin, I like your sense of humor.... I doubt, though, that too many people would even know about the AGIP lion, which, of course, has SIX legs....

13th March 2019, 01:47 AM	#6
William Fox Member Join Date: Dec 2015 Location: Great Britain Posts: 24	Jim, the centre and bottom blades both seem to have a similar configuration in edge geometry and fuller position. And both lions are stamped at roughly the same place on the blade. Must be a connection in origin. Does anyone have any knowledge of the scabbard and scabbard embellishments of kaskara? I wonder if those little tassels and added details represent tribe, region or status?

13th March 2019, 03:27 AM	#7
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 415	Jim, Both William's sword and Stephen Wood's sword and markings from this 2009 post are virtually identical. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10043 Both have a cross & orb and "lion" as noted by Stephen in Pallme (Travels in Kordofan, p.298) and attributed as Austrian imports. (William's has the 4-pointed mark (applied by two strikes) in front of the lion that Stephen's does not. This mark is unique to me, and I wonder why it is on William's and not Stephen's.) Also, I agree that these marks are not from Kull. Both swords have a more rounded point, I think more in common with imports than the more common pointed locally forged examples. Thus, I tend to agree that both blades are imports, but of unknown manufacture. If the cross & orbs are actually Funj sticks & drums property marks these swords could be from at least the early 19th Cent (pre 1821). That may be why the common marks are unknown. The "lion" is rather stylized with internal fur, but the open mouth, curled tail and especially the rump look unnatural to me. William, the scabbard looks rather recent to me, certainly not as old as the sword. Also, most are dyed a reddish brown rather than black. I don't think the scribbed designs are indicative and the strings are as far as I know just for looks. Regards, Ed