Army yatagan?

ariel · 18th April 2006, 04:43 AM

According to Miller (" Caucasiske Wappen") many, if not most, swordmakers in Georgia were Armenians. The most famous ones, Khachatur, Papov (Popov) and Purunsuzov were all ethnic Armenians and their blades represent the top of swordmaking.
The most famous one, Geurk Elizarov (Elizarashvili), who made swords for the Russian Tsars and whose blades were immortalized by the great 19th century Russian poet Lermontov, was a master with no equals: his swords are unsurpassable in beauty! Assadullah and Masamune have nothing on him. He is an enigma: the name is Jewish. Many Georgian Jews in Israel carry a last name composed of a Biblical name (Eliezer or Elazar, in this case) and ending in -shvili (one of the Caucasian equivalents of -son, -ov, -in, -ski in Russian, Mc- in Scotland and O'- in Ireland). The great orthopedic surgeon Gavril Ilizarov (occasionally spelled Elizarov) was a "Mountain Jew".http://www.ilizarov.org.uk/biog.htm Were they related? It would be an important academic project to research the biography of Geurk Elizarov, because there is very little known about him as a person: like many great masters, he left behind his creations that speak for him and not much more.

Geurk's sons were the teachers of the Zlatoust Russian swordmakers Schaff and Boyarschinov and, thus, responsible for the great tradition of Zlatoust parade Damascus weapons.

TVV · 18th April 2006, 07:48 AM

I was browsing "Russian Edged Weapons" by Kulinski and I found a similarity between the weapon, which started the thread and a Russian M 1810 hanger,m issued to the lower ranks of the naval artillery. The hilt and scabbard mounts are different, but there was quite a variety within Russian patterns at that time, and Kulinski wrote his book based on the available samples in the Military History Museum of Artillery, Engineer Troops, and Signal Troops. But before we jump to any conclusion, here are the stats from the book:
OAL length: 685 mm
Blade length: 535 mm
If the size of the hanger in question is indeed close to these measurements (I feel too lazy to convert them to inches right now), then it is very likely a Russian M 1810 hanger. Quite a find.

Rivkin · 19th April 2006, 05:51 AM

I would better phrase - in Tbilisi, main center of sword production, most of artisans were armenian, sword-related industries being no exception. The population was also mostly armenien, with georgians probably not accounting even for a quarter of total population. Same goes for Dzhavakheti-Mesheti, Baku, etc. At the same time there was a considerable nothern diaspora, particularly from Dagestan, which was quite prominent in sword making (for every Geurk they will praise Bazalay

). At the same time in the western Georgia, majority of sword makers were georgian, even though it was probably not as big a production center as Tbilisi.

Now to Geurk - novadays Geurk became almost an icon of the most extreme georgian nationalism. His name is surrounded with many legends, most of them talk about Tsar jailing his family and requiring Geurk to deliver the secret of true djavari steel. Geurk reveals the secret, however slightly alters the ingridients so that the obtained steel is a simple wootz (i.e. does not cut anvils into pieces). The real recipe is obviously hidden behind the third brick on the left side of some church. At the same time, real Geurk's biography is virtually unknown.

Concerning family names - diversity of languages used by tribes created great variety of endings, all basically meaning "son" - shvili, dze, iya, ani, uri, a etc. Shvili is more characteristic to eastern Georgia, and also is the most popular ending for the jews, who usually have names like _something(usually Israel, Jordan etc.)_a_shvili. At the same time it is quite possible that Geurk's family was simply founded by a jew - for example Eliashvili, while their family was founded by a jew, and they, as Bagratids, are called "jews" in georgian chronicles, nevertheless they are not jewish for jews "proper".

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

According to Miller (" Caucasiske Wappen") many, if not most, swordmakers in Georgia were Armenians. The most famous ones, Khachatur, Papov (Popov) and Purunsuzov were all ethnic Armenians and their blades represent the top of swordmaking.
The most famous one, Geurk Elizarov (Elizarashvili), who made swords for the Russian Tsars and whose blades were immortalized by the great 19th century Russian poet Lermontov, was a master with no equals: his swords are unsurpassable in beauty! Assadullah and Masamune have nothing on him. He is an enigma: the name is Jewish. Many Georgian Jews in Israel carry a last name composed of a Biblical name (Eliezer or Elazar, in this case) and ending in -shvili (one of the Caucasian equivalents of -son, -ov, -in, -ski in Russian, Mc- in Scotland and O'- in Ireland). The great orthopedic surgeon Gavril Ilizarov (occasionally spelled Elizarov) was a "Mountain Jew".http://www.ilizarov.org.uk/biog.htm Were they related? It would be an important academic project to research the biography of Geurk Elizarov, because there is very little known about him as a person: like many great masters, he left behind his creations that speak for him and not much more.

Geurk's sons were the teachers of the Zlatoust Russian swordmakers Schaff and Boyarschinov and, thus, responsible for the great tradition of Zlatoust parade Damascus weapons.

18th April 2006, 07:48 AM	#2
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	I was browsing "Russian Edged Weapons" by Kulinski and I found a similarity between the weapon, which started the thread and a Russian M 1810 hanger,m issued to the lower ranks of the naval artillery. The hilt and scabbard mounts are different, but there was quite a variety within Russian patterns at that time, and Kulinski wrote his book based on the available samples in the Military History Museum of Artillery, Engineer Troops, and Signal Troops. But before we jump to any conclusion, here are the stats from the book: OAL length: 685 mm Blade length: 535 mm If the size of the hanger in question is indeed close to these measurements (I feel too lazy to convert them to inches right now), then it is very likely a Russian M 1810 hanger. Quite a find. Attached Images

18th April 2006, 04:43 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	According to Miller (" Caucasiske Wappen") many, if not most, swordmakers in Georgia were Armenians. The most famous ones, Khachatur, Papov (Popov) and Purunsuzov were all ethnic Armenians and their blades represent the top of swordmaking. The most famous one, Geurk Elizarov (Elizarashvili), who made swords for the Russian Tsars and whose blades were immortalized by the great 19th century Russian poet Lermontov, was a master with no equals: his swords are unsurpassable in beauty! Assadullah and Masamune have nothing on him. He is an enigma: the name is Jewish. Many Georgian Jews in Israel carry a last name composed of a Biblical name (Eliezer or Elazar, in this case) and ending in -shvili (one of the Caucasian equivalents of -son, -ov, -in, -ski in Russian, Mc- in Scotland and O'- in Ireland). The great orthopedic surgeon Gavril Ilizarov (occasionally spelled Elizarov) was a "Mountain Jew".http://www.ilizarov.org.uk/biog.htm Were they related? It would be an important academic project to research the biography of Geurk Elizarov, because there is very little known about him as a person: like many great masters, he left behind his creations that speak for him and not much more. Geurk's sons were the teachers of the Zlatoust Russian swordmakers Schaff and Boyarschinov and, thus, responsible for the great tradition of Zlatoust parade Damascus weapons.