Jamdhar katari - a theory

[mahratt]

Dear fernando, your impression is not right I do not argue. I'm trying to figure out the new.
I was just taught to trust facts and not opinions ...
While I see such facts.
1) It turns out that there are many images of the use of the dagger katar in Teriomachia and few images of the use of the dagger katar in the battle between people (and in particular, I don’t see how the images of the dagger katar pierced the chain mail or other armor)
2) With the exception of data from Ibn Battuta, there is no evidence from eyewitnesses of the use of the dagger katar during a battle between people (but it turns out we don’t know if we are talking about that dagger katar we know today by that name)
3) All data on the use of the dagger kutar from the respected E. Jaiwant Paul is cited as a personal opinion of the collector, whose grandfather who served in the Princely States .... For example, my grandfather was a tankman, but this does not mean that I can manage a tank. ...
4) Rainer Dahehnardt the author, who wrote that the Talwars handles and the Talwars blades were kept in India in different towers ????

It turns out that they documented their thoughts ... and no more ... But maybe I did not read their books carefully? E. Jaiwant Paul and Rainer Dahehnardt somewhere refer to sources 17 or 18-th century, which tells how the dagger kаtar was used? I have not found this information ...

I do not blame anyone Alternative sources in this topic were presented by the Mercenary.

Crocodiles in India attacked people (due to the fact that the corpses after the rite of burning were dumped into the water and the crocodiles got used to eating human meat). Therefore, a battle with him could be considered a heroic act no less dangerous than a battle with a tiger. But maybe you're right and this is exoteric artwork

[fernando]

Originally Posted by mahratt

... Dear fernando, your impression is not right I do not argue.

Of course you don't .

Originally Posted by mahratt

... For example, my grandfather was a tankman, but this does not mean that I can manage a tank. ...

Have you ever tried ? i guess you would manage well .

Originally Posted by mahratt

...Crocodiles in India attacked people

Not only in India, as you should know; take Africa, for one. And it is not only because they get the habit by eating corpses; living warm blood mammals are just fine for their diet.

[Mercenary]

This term was used for different kind of weapon because in meant just "to cut" (as a rule for a straight item). Ibn Batuta in fact described jamdhar, but with the blade two cubits long (one metr?). May be it was proto-pata?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Mercenary

... Ibn Batuta in fact described jamdhar, but with the blade two cubits long (one metr?). May be it was proto-pata?

Two cubits measure 90 cms., which is also the longest known length of katars. But you are probably right. Unless it was a hybrid of both ... or other period styles; India had/has such immense profusion of weapons !

[Jim McDougall]

It seems it was cleared up years ago (we have been discussing and researching katars here for over 20 yrs) that the jamadhar was actually the transverse gripped dagger we have known collectively as the katar. The error in term seems to have originated with Egerton (1885) who transposed the terms in his description. This was well pointed out by Pant (1980) and noted that despite the proper term 'jamdhar' for the 'katar'......he seems to have juxtaposed the two with the classification of the 'jamdhar/katari'.

As this was the actual topic of this thread when it began, it seems appropriate to reattend to it here.

The jamdhar/kitari is an H shaped hilt on a dagger blade, and as Egerton has described, well known in Nepal (#344-45) I know this form of dagger, actually termed 'katara' is indeed well known there as a good friend from Germany who travelled in Nepal extensively for many years, always found them in great number there.
Also, these were well known in Nuristan( formerly Kafiristan) in India, where they were used by tribes known as Kafirs. These tribes relocated in regions in Chitral and are now known as the Kalash people. In research on them I communicated with tribal elders and others of this heritage.

Image of katara attached.


The katar (jamdhar) we are familiar with seems to have mysteriously appeared much earlier than the examples we know now of 17th-19th c.
and as noted is even described in writings of 13th-14th c. as katar. But do we know what weapon was actually meant? No.

The 'katar' term seems a well used cognate of words for cut or knife etc.


It seems that early examples of katar from Vijayanagara etc. are indeed larger than later examples (I am not familiar with cubits, aside from use describing the ark). It does seem that the hooded examples probably did inspire the eventual evolution of the pata.


The description used as 'dirk' for katar is believed to have derived from the common repurposing of blades, whether broken or otherwise, from full size swords...in the manner of Scottish dirks. We know it was common practice to reue the valuable blades from basket hilts into dirks. When these were proscribed in the 18th c. the dirk was still allowed as it was regarded as utilitarian.

When European blades flooded into India in late 16th-17th c. they were often fashioned into katar blades.


Now all of this is truly DIGRESSION......back to the actual topic here.....the JAMDHAR KATARI .

[Mercenary]

Thanks Jim. I only can added that these daggers in huge numbers got to Nepal from Bihar and Bengal along with fakirs after the suppression of their rebellion in 1799.
And not "jamdhar katari". Just "katar" or "katara"/"katarah". Dagger of Kafirs are an another type. I do not know what they are

[ariel]

Mahratt,
I intentionally do not react to your posts and this is my second appeal to you to do the same.
If you want to express your opinion related to my comments on this Forum, first, please keep it to yourself. If unable to do so , please express yourself in a civilized manner , without ad hominem attacks. This is obviously OK on the Russian Forum, but not here.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Mercenary

Thanks Jim. I only can added that these daggers in huge numbers got to Nepal from Bihar and Bengal along with fakirs after the suppression of their rebellion in 1799.
And not "jamdhar katari". Just "katar" or "katara"/"katarah". Dagger of Kafirs are an another type. I do not know what they are

Thank you so much for the attention to my post in trying to get back to the topic of this thread, the jamdhar-katari, which Stan posted so thoughtfully some 7 years ago.
As I was desperately trying to illustrate amid the rest of this specious katar discussion, the KATARA was indeed the dagger which was illustrated as the dagger of the Kafir people of what is now Nuristan (a province in Eastern Afghanistan). As I noted, I did research on these people, now called Kalash and situated in regions of Chitral to the west in Afghanistan.

In my research I obtained the two volume set of "The Kafirs of Hindu Kush: A Study of the Waigal and Ashkun Kafirs" by Max Klimburg (1999).
In this book these daggers are illustrated and called katara.


I hope I can make this clear enough as it was queried in the original post 7 years ago. The transverse grip dagger we these days call katar…...was originally called jamdhar. Egerton in his writing (1885) for some yet unknown reason termed these H hilt daggers attributed to Nepal the JAMDHAR-KITARI.

What transpired after this appears that the jamdhar term which SHOULD have been used for the many transverse gripped daggers illustrated inexplicably became noted as katars. This profound oversight or error became the ever known term for these daggers in the literature to this day.


The note that the katara daggers got to Nepal via the fakirs rebellion from Bengal is most interesting and I would not dispute that this form was known over many regions in these areas, and surely not exclusive only to the Kafirs any more than people in Nepal. I have always been under the impression that fakirs were not allowed weapons and used their innovative and 'disguised' forms.....but in a formalized insurgence the use of any weapon would be understood.


This again is simply another futile effort to address the topic of the thread originally and avoid further attention to the specious debate digressing presently, and frankly disappointingly ridiculous.