Maranao Datu? Kris

wilked aka Khun Deng · 22nd January 2005, 03:28 PM

I am sure the redress was done quite some time ago and here's why. I've polished many a sword and this one took three applications to bring out the brilliance. While I agree that the actual setting of the blade may have been earlier than fifty years ago the dress shows definative age and undoubtably usage wear at exactly the points it should, index finger placement (the chasing is almost worn off there) and at heel of the hand. Many bands are seperated and lower ones remain tighly woven. The grime, especially that imbedded in the copper wire wrap, was especially difficult to remove and was not just dirt but oily grime that had set in over time. The ivory was particularrly hard to clean and is still embedded in the three cracks that show (I only showed the best side).

Zelbone, will post the Barung(s) tomorrow.

Andrew, yes I do have some dha for sale - you can bid on them at my funeral after you pry them from my cold dead hands!!!! Your address was where in Florida and you're taking your vacation when?

I have not turned, I've simply EXPANDED

I have limited my collection by two criteria either I've worked there or worked with their troops. Hell if I didn't I'd definately go broke especially with all those flambouyant Indian swords I love to look at.

Best to you all and thanks for the input.

Federico · 22nd January 2005, 08:53 PM

Of course, I would not be surprised if the dress was 10 or 20 years old, when I implied newer than 50 years old, I did not mean it was made yesterday, or even the year before.. But I am suspicious when it comes to Manila Antique shops. While I would like to tell myself, oh it is a traditional upgrade of hilts. Ive seen and been told too many stories from "Manila Antique" shops telling me that they have a "Maranao Datu's piece" that "displays all the fine acruitriments of a wealthy persons sword such as ivory or silver or gold", etc... and above all it is all original. In this case the upgrade of hilts was not to repair a good ol piece that was missing a hilt, but an intentional upgrade to turn a common persons kris that would sell for a lower price, into a "Datu's" kris at a much higher price. Which is why I am interested in what the seller had to say. If he is open about it being a composite, then I am more inclined to believe I am being overly paranoid, but if instead he gives a lovely story about an original piece then I become much more skeptical about the "traditional" repair. Also, pusaka pieces are not lightly given in Moroland today. If indeed it was a traditional re-do, and the owner hit hard times, the owner would do his best to keep the blade. Moro royalty, the only ones for whom such a re-build would be proper (the jump in stature for a commoner, even a rich commoner would be a very bad slip in social etiquite) are very much aware of how their ancestors were robbed of fine pieces on the field of battle, and many if not all are very protective of what few cultural heirlooms they have left. Which leads to then, why get rid of such a fine piece, after taking so much time and money to get it re-done so well, when there would at least be a few options around it? Now of course we can get into the role of the MNLF fighting in the 70s, a time when many fighters did sell pieces in dire straights, but stuff sold in this period, since the MNLF was largely a common persons movement, and not overly filled with royalty (many of whom were entrenched in official government) were plainer less guady swords. Now, current groups have other means of raising capital, and straights arent so dire. Which leads us back to why sell the pusaka?

Spunjer · 23rd January 2005, 02:12 AM

well, there's also the possibility of those swords being looted items (by p.i. soldiers) or stolen items. i know manila is notorious for such a thing as you mentioned, but not everyone's crooked over there, bro. there are just too many variables...

BluErf · 23rd January 2005, 02:22 AM

Just an idea -- the assumption that owner of a high status blade would only sell it during hard times -- but what if its a case of the current generation being disinterested in his 'grandfather's dusty old stuff' and have no qualms selling it off to buy a car, rolex or handphone?

BluErf · 23rd January 2005, 02:28 AM

And just another idea -- I'm not sure about how Moros normally get elevated in social standing to the status of a Datu, but if it is possible that a person 'fights' his way up social hierarchy to become a Datu, he and his descendants may keep the trusty old blade that accompanied (and contributed to) the person's rise and simply change the dress to fit the elevated social status. Of course, the person may also commission a new blade.

zamboanga · 23rd January 2005, 02:58 AM

just my 2 cents worth... a pusaka is sometimes offered for sale if the owner intends to get something greater in return. example, the money can be used to fund a hajj to mecca.

in other instances it maybe a swap for a modern weapon - 1911 gold cup or better still a baby armalite.

Federico · 23rd January 2005, 06:00 AM

Elevation to Datu class would be through marriage, while one can rise to high status otherwise, Datu class is royalty class. Kinda the same idea, no matter how rich Trump gets, he is still not a royal unless he marries into it. Now it has happened that people of common origins have improved their blood lines through marriage, but to do this, one needs quite substantial bits of money. Now, I did not mention the potential for stealing items, because I would like to hope things arent this way in this situation, but I am afraid it is far too common. Particularly in the santo trade, an amazing amount of churches have been robbed to provide collectors markets in Manila. However, I would not like to cast such extreme allegations without specific proof.

As for pride in the past heritage going down, or trading for a new weapon, large sum of money, etc... It happens, all the time. However, again we are looking at what would be a very high class weapon. Ivory, and metal hilted pieces are not exactly commonplace. The amount of those in the Datu class who joined the MNLF, MILF, and other rebel groups has been very low. PI is a poor country, but not everyone in PI is so poor that they are willing to sell their lives at a whim. I am not trying to be overly harsh here, but realistically the number of truly legitimate high end pieces left in the PI after the glut of the Spanish American war is very very low. The high end pieces left, were those in the possessions of people who were not exactly low end ranking royalty, and who are very much concerned with preserving their cultural history. On a numbers level, the amount of people in the class to make such a change, remain very low. We are talking major calamities and great change of fortune here for things to change around. Also considering the age of the re-fit, it is very likely that the person who sold it, was alive when the refit was done, limiting the idea of the grandkid an the grandpas chest. Now on the flip side, the numbers of old commoner blades being re-habbed and then sold as royal weaponry, are quite high and have been a well documented process for many many years. There are fakes in every other sword market, many with high degrees of sophistication. So just because PI is a poor country, we are supposed to buy the idea that fakery wont occur? Are we supposed to buy, that only the guadiest tourist items are the only items being passed off as real? While here in the US because of the rampant nature of stripping dead bodies during the Phil-Am war, and the lower value the general populace has for these weapons, people of relatively humble backgrounds, such as I can afford to have a few pieces. However, in PI it is names like Zobel, Araneta, Alaya,etc... that collect these pieces. The prices that have been paid for plainer pieces in Manila markets for such collectors, has been extremely high. Now, are we to assume that there would not be someone out there who wouldnt want to put a little extra effort to tap into a few of these dollars beyond bringing out the guadiest of tourist kris of the type that one finds in shoemart? Is PI full of saints?

OK, I am not trying to say one cant collect what one wants, and that only 100% original is great. My own collection is all what many would consider junky pieces, that have been re-habbed numerous times. I can only think of a few pieces that are somewhat complete, and I dont think I have anything that is 100% original. I am trying to say exercise some caution this stuff happens, and sometimes when it sounds too good to be true, well... As before I am interested in hearing the story behind the sword. As I mentioned before, I am more inclined to be less paranoid if the dealer isnt trying to pass it off as 100% original, when we can all see it is not. But given the state of things, I wonder, and hence I express my curiosity about the origins and stories of this sword, and throw out the caution to those who have not experienced the fact that fakes are occuring in such a nature, that hey its nice, well done, but it is not old or probably royal. For me the greatest tragedy, is that a number of swords that do get re-habbed like this were suitable working swords, but lacked the sex-appeal of a fancy piece.

22nd January 2005, 03:28 PM	#1
wilked aka Khun Deng Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oahu, Hawaii Posts: 166	Redress I am sure the redress was done quite some time ago and here's why. I've polished many a sword and this one took three applications to bring out the brilliance. While I agree that the actual setting of the blade may have been earlier than fifty years ago the dress shows definative age and undoubtably usage wear at exactly the points it should, index finger placement (the chasing is almost worn off there) and at heel of the hand. Many bands are seperated and lower ones remain tighly woven. The grime, especially that imbedded in the copper wire wrap, was especially difficult to remove and was not just dirt but oily grime that had set in over time. The ivory was particularrly hard to clean and is still embedded in the three cracks that show (I only showed the best side). Zelbone, will post the Barung(s) tomorrow. Andrew, yes I do have some dha for sale - you can bid on them at my funeral after you pry them from my cold dead hands!!!! Your address was where in Florida and you're taking your vacation when? I have not turned, I've simply EXPANDED I have limited my collection by two criteria either I've worked there or worked with their troops. Hell if I didn't I'd definately go broke especially with all those flambouyant Indian swords I love to look at. Best to you all and thanks for the input.

22nd January 2005, 08:53 PM	#2
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Of course, I would not be surprised if the dress was 10 or 20 years old, when I implied newer than 50 years old, I did not mean it was made yesterday, or even the year before.. But I am suspicious when it comes to Manila Antique shops. While I would like to tell myself, oh it is a traditional upgrade of hilts. Ive seen and been told too many stories from "Manila Antique" shops telling me that they have a "Maranao Datu's piece" that "displays all the fine acruitriments of a wealthy persons sword such as ivory or silver or gold", etc... and above all it is all original. In this case the upgrade of hilts was not to repair a good ol piece that was missing a hilt, but an intentional upgrade to turn a common persons kris that would sell for a lower price, into a "Datu's" kris at a much higher price. Which is why I am interested in what the seller had to say. If he is open about it being a composite, then I am more inclined to believe I am being overly paranoid, but if instead he gives a lovely story about an original piece then I become much more skeptical about the "traditional" repair. Also, pusaka pieces are not lightly given in Moroland today. If indeed it was a traditional re-do, and the owner hit hard times, the owner would do his best to keep the blade. Moro royalty, the only ones for whom such a re-build would be proper (the jump in stature for a commoner, even a rich commoner would be a very bad slip in social etiquite) are very much aware of how their ancestors were robbed of fine pieces on the field of battle, and many if not all are very protective of what few cultural heirlooms they have left. Which leads to then, why get rid of such a fine piece, after taking so much time and money to get it re-done so well, when there would at least be a few options around it? Now of course we can get into the role of the MNLF fighting in the 70s, a time when many fighters did sell pieces in dire straights, but stuff sold in this period, since the MNLF was largely a common persons movement, and not overly filled with royalty (many of whom were entrenched in official government) were plainer less guady swords. Now, current groups have other means of raising capital, and straights arent so dire. Which leads us back to why sell the pusaka?

23rd January 2005, 02:12 AM	#3
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	well, there's also the possibility of those swords being looted items (by p.i. soldiers) or stolen items. i know manila is notorious for such a thing as you mentioned, but not everyone's crooked over there, bro. there are just too many variables...

23rd January 2005, 02:22 AM	#4
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Just an idea -- the assumption that owner of a high status blade would only sell it during hard times -- but what if its a case of the current generation being disinterested in his 'grandfather's dusty old stuff' and have no qualms selling it off to buy a car, rolex or handphone?

23rd January 2005, 02:28 AM	#5
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	And just another idea -- I'm not sure about how Moros normally get elevated in social standing to the status of a Datu, but if it is possible that a person 'fights' his way up social hierarchy to become a Datu, he and his descendants may keep the trusty old blade that accompanied (and contributed to) the person's rise and simply change the dress to fit the elevated social status. Of course, the person may also commission a new blade.

23rd January 2005, 02:58 AM	#6
zamboanga Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: zamboanga city, philippines Posts: 132	just my 2 cents worth... a pusaka is sometimes offered for sale if the owner intends to get something greater in return. example, the money can be used to fund a hajj to mecca. in other instances it maybe a swap for a modern weapon - 1911 gold cup or better still a baby armalite.

23rd January 2005, 06:00 AM	#7
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Elevation to Datu class would be through marriage, while one can rise to high status otherwise, Datu class is royalty class. Kinda the same idea, no matter how rich Trump gets, he is still not a royal unless he marries into it. Now it has happened that people of common origins have improved their blood lines through marriage, but to do this, one needs quite substantial bits of money. Now, I did not mention the potential for stealing items, because I would like to hope things arent this way in this situation, but I am afraid it is far too common. Particularly in the santo trade, an amazing amount of churches have been robbed to provide collectors markets in Manila. However, I would not like to cast such extreme allegations without specific proof. As for pride in the past heritage going down, or trading for a new weapon, large sum of money, etc... It happens, all the time. However, again we are looking at what would be a very high class weapon. Ivory, and metal hilted pieces are not exactly commonplace. The amount of those in the Datu class who joined the MNLF, MILF, and other rebel groups has been very low. PI is a poor country, but not everyone in PI is so poor that they are willing to sell their lives at a whim. I am not trying to be overly harsh here, but realistically the number of truly legitimate high end pieces left in the PI after the glut of the Spanish American war is very very low. The high end pieces left, were those in the possessions of people who were not exactly low end ranking royalty, and who are very much concerned with preserving their cultural history. On a numbers level, the amount of people in the class to make such a change, remain very low. We are talking major calamities and great change of fortune here for things to change around. Also considering the age of the re-fit, it is very likely that the person who sold it, was alive when the refit was done, limiting the idea of the grandkid an the grandpas chest. Now on the flip side, the numbers of old commoner blades being re-habbed and then sold as royal weaponry, are quite high and have been a well documented process for many many years. There are fakes in every other sword market, many with high degrees of sophistication. So just because PI is a poor country, we are supposed to buy the idea that fakery wont occur? Are we supposed to buy, that only the guadiest tourist items are the only items being passed off as real? While here in the US because of the rampant nature of stripping dead bodies during the Phil-Am war, and the lower value the general populace has for these weapons, people of relatively humble backgrounds, such as I can afford to have a few pieces. However, in PI it is names like Zobel, Araneta, Alaya,etc... that collect these pieces. The prices that have been paid for plainer pieces in Manila markets for such collectors, has been extremely high. Now, are we to assume that there would not be someone out there who wouldnt want to put a little extra effort to tap into a few of these dollars beyond bringing out the guadiest of tourist kris of the type that one finds in shoemart? Is PI full of saints? OK, I am not trying to say one cant collect what one wants, and that only 100% original is great. My own collection is all what many would consider junky pieces, that have been re-habbed numerous times. I can only think of a few pieces that are somewhat complete, and I dont think I have anything that is 100% original. I am trying to say exercise some caution this stuff happens, and sometimes when it sounds too good to be true, well... As before I am interested in hearing the story behind the sword. As I mentioned before, I am more inclined to be less paranoid if the dealer isnt trying to pass it off as 100% original, when we can all see it is not. But given the state of things, I wonder, and hence I express my curiosity about the origins and stories of this sword, and throw out the caution to those who have not experienced the fact that fakes are occuring in such a nature, that hey its nice, well done, but it is not old or probably royal. For me the greatest tragedy, is that a number of swords that do get re-habbed like this were suitable working swords, but lacked the sex-appeal of a fancy piece.