Flint pistol - Nationality?

fernando · 13th February 2019, 06:19 PM

The popularization of barrel rifling brough a great advantage; while in the smooth bore one has to load a bullet with a diameter sligthly narrower than the barrel interior, such gap called “windage”, in which pressure gases are wasted, reducing the accuracy and effective range (distance) of the shot, with the rifling one loads a bullet slightly larger than the barrel bore, reducing the gases escape, thus increasing accuracy and effective range performance.
One handicap with the (muzzle loading) rifling system is that it takes a “lot” more time to load, as the bullet doesn’t ‘fall’ into the barrel, having instead to be thoroughly & firmly rammed with the rod. Such difference in loading cadence was well noted during the Peninsular War, where the first Riflemen appeared with the Baker gun.
With the turn off barrel this brought a distinct procedure as, the wider bullet was placed right in the chamber, the gunpowder being poured directly in place, thus its portion more rationalized, the result being optimum. We call this system "forced bullet" in my neck of the woods.
I gather that these barrels may not need to be so long, due to achieved performance with such system, but longer ones may also be seen.
(Photos courtesy John W. Burgoyne)

Am i talking nonsense ?

,

JamesKelly · 13th February 2019, 07:27 PM

Oh my was I wrong. And glad to be so
Yes, the rifling is real, extending all the way to the breech as it should. 7 grooves, flat lands.
One minor point is the numeral eleven neatly cut into the stock.

In the USA we are intensely interested in mid-18th to early 19th century American made rifles. We call them "Kentucky rifles", possiblly bsed on an old song celebrating how our last spat with the UK turned out. Most were made in Pennsylvania. Since 1928 there have been countless books on the subject.
My point is, over here I can look at an 18th cnetury American rifle and by the style alone have a good idea where an unmarked rifle made, the state and even the county. Are there detailed books written on German flintlock pistols? I have one on Jaeger rifles written a few years ago, with English translation. Although - Ich habe nur paar worten Deutsch - I am willing to struggle through German text where flintlocks are concerned.

I thank you all for your comments. And I am happy to have a real rifled pistol. Our American "Kentucky" rifles were made by German gunsmiths in Pennsylvania, based on Germanic styling with a longer barrel. So this is the nearest I can afford to an American pistol, usually rifled.

fernando · 13th February 2019, 08:34 PM

Glad to hear that, James

.

Fernando K · 13th February 2019, 09:11 PM

Hello James

Although I live very far, I have seen photographed some copies of pistols "Kentucky", manufactured by the American gunsmiths, and they differ a lot from the first post. Particularly, by the barrel, generally octagonal and ochavado, lacking in moldings and a simple lock, lacking in decoration

Affectionately

Pukka Bundook · 14th February 2019, 03:10 PM

James,

Regarding the rammer for your very nice pistol, Hickory is all right, as it looks very close to ash, which was used commonly in Europe and the UK.
For better pieces, both ebony and wood died to look like ebony were used, plus Rosewood and Purple Heart.

Purple-Heart is a very strong wood and was used by some of the best makers. Also, whale baleen was used.

All the best,
Richard.

JamesKelly · 14th February 2019, 07:02 PM

Thank you, Ricard. Back in the late '60's I used to shoot muzzle loading rifles with a group in Cincinnati, Ohio.
One guy shot very well using an original pistol.
Said it shot so well because it had a whalebone ramrod. I couldn't beat him, having only a hickory rod.

JamesKelly · 14th February 2019, 10:10 PM

Fernando – with respect to American made flint lock guns I am sad to say that a great deal of art and craftmanship was lost during those voyages across the Atlantic to the New World. American flint rifles and pistols are highly prized over here because they are American made. Personally, I think most “Kentucky” pistols are not so attractive. I like this German pistol

You might log on to kentucky rifle association dot org to sample our enthusiasm for this American style rifle.

13th February 2019, 06:19 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Help me get this straight ... The popularization of barrel rifling brough a great advantage; while in the smooth bore one has to load a bullet with a diameter sligthly narrower than the barrel interior, such gap called “windage”, in which pressure gases are wasted, reducing the accuracy and effective range (distance) of the shot, with the rifling one loads a bullet slightly larger than the barrel bore, reducing the gases escape, thus increasing accuracy and effective range performance. One handicap with the (muzzle loading) rifling system is that it takes a “lot” more time to load, as the bullet doesn’t ‘fall’ into the barrel, having instead to be thoroughly & firmly rammed with the rod. Such difference in loading cadence was well noted during the Peninsular War, where the first Riflemen appeared with the Baker gun. With the turn off barrel this brought a distinct procedure as, the wider bullet was placed right in the chamber, the gunpowder being poured directly in place, thus its portion more rationalized, the result being optimum. We call this system "forced bullet" in my neck of the woods. I gather that these barrels may not need to be so long, due to achieved performance with such system, but longer ones may also be seen. (Photos courtesy John W. Burgoyne) Am i talking nonsense ? , Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 13th February 2019 at 06:32 PM.

13th February 2019, 07:27 PM	#2
JamesKelly Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Michigan, U.S.A. Posts: 108	Oh my was I wrong. And glad to be so Yes, the rifling is real, extending all the way to the breech as it should. 7 grooves, flat lands. One minor point is the numeral eleven neatly cut into the stock. In the USA we are intensely interested in mid-18th to early 19th century American made rifles. We call them "Kentucky rifles", possiblly bsed on an old song celebrating how our last spat with the UK turned out. Most were made in Pennsylvania. Since 1928 there have been countless books on the subject. My point is, over here I can look at an 18th cnetury American rifle and by the style alone have a good idea where an unmarked rifle made, the state and even the county. Are there detailed books written on German flintlock pistols? I have one on Jaeger rifles written a few years ago, with English translation. Although - Ich habe nur paar worten Deutsch - I am willing to struggle through German text where flintlocks are concerned. I thank you all for your comments. And I am happy to have a real rifled pistol. Our American "Kentucky" rifles were made by German gunsmiths in Pennsylvania, based on Germanic styling with a longer barrel. So this is the nearest I can afford to an American pistol, usually rifled. Attached Images

13th February 2019, 08:34 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Glad to hear that, James .

13th February 2019, 09:11 PM	#4
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 672	Hello James Although I live very far, I have seen photographed some copies of pistols "Kentucky", manufactured by the American gunsmiths, and they differ a lot from the first post. Particularly, by the barrel, generally octagonal and ochavado, lacking in moldings and a simple lock, lacking in decoration Affectionately

14th February 2019, 03:10 PM	#5
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	James, Regarding the rammer for your very nice pistol, Hickory is all right, as it looks very close to ash, which was used commonly in Europe and the UK. For better pieces, both ebony and wood died to look like ebony were used, plus Rosewood and Purple Heart. Purple-Heart is a very strong wood and was used by some of the best makers. Also, whale baleen was used. All the best, Richard.

14th February 2019, 07:02 PM	#6
JamesKelly Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Michigan, U.S.A. Posts: 108	Thank you, Ricard. Back in the late '60's I used to shoot muzzle loading rifles with a group in Cincinnati, Ohio. One guy shot very well using an original pistol. Said it shot so well because it had a whalebone ramrod. I couldn't beat him, having only a hickory rod.

14th February 2019, 10:10 PM	#7
JamesKelly Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Michigan, U.S.A. Posts: 108	Fernando – with respect to American made flint lock guns I am sad to say that a great deal of art and craftmanship was lost during those voyages across the Atlantic to the New World. American flint rifles and pistols are highly prized over here because they are American made. Personally, I think most “Kentucky” pistols are not so attractive. I like this German pistol You might log on to kentucky rifle association dot org to sample our enthusiasm for this American style rifle.