Ancient Zealot daggers

[fernando]

After all, the Sica was quite a famous weapon . Brought around by Thracians and Dacians, adopted by Romans and Zealots, everybody had a go at it. Forcingly there were several variations, but with the basic shape of a reaping device, so it seems. Here can be seen a Tracian Sica Supina, made in wood, for trainning purposes, found within the barracks of a Roman legion, in Oberaden. http://www.arsdimicandi.net/ad_1_0000b0.htm. Rudis is the name given by Romans for sword wood replicas, which can be either trainning pieces for the army exercises and gladiator rookies, as well as presentation swords to victorious gladiators, signifying they could retire from such tough business.
Dacian Sicas can be seen in Trajan's Column.http://cheiron.mcmaster.ca/~trajan/b...anpage.cgi?349
However i am personally convinced that the non combat Sica version, that one of Sicarius, be them Roman Sicarius, Zealot Sicarius, or the unamed Scum of the period, would be a shorter handy piece. Whether these concealed daggers were double or single edged, or simply free style, is something to be found out, as the chronicles do not coincide on this point.

[Jim McDougall]

More great info and threads Fernando, thank you!! I think you are right, a smaller handy form would be more in line with the stealth needed in carrying out the activities of sicarri. As Jens mentioned earlier, such a smaller and curved form would be ideal for such purpose, but not likely in more conventional combat or defense.
It seems like references to sica/sickle and such blades with inside cutting edge may well have been for throat slashing, as Jens suggests, but also very effective at the upward sweep in abdominal attack, as noted by Rick.
One thought that comes with Fernando's note on the Dacian form of sica, it seems that I had read somewhere that the Dacians had sickle type edged weapons, and one drawing I had seen captioned it a Dacian 'razor' knife.
Best regards,
Jim

[ariel]

In American prison parlance it would be called a Shiv.

[Jim McDougall]

Ahah Ariel!!! Good one! Its been a while since I heard that term......not from personal experience mind you !!!!
Now my curiosity goes again....where does the 'shiv' term come from?

Best regards,
Jim

[fernando]

there you are
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiv_%28weapon%29

[fearn]

This is a great discussion. One point I'm not convinced on, though, is that a sica was a strongly defined type of blade. We could be dealing something similar to the English "knife" or the Chinese/Burmese/etc. "dao," where the term is loosely defined, but (as always) everyone in the culture knows what one looks like. I'm guessing that we can add "sica" to this group of general blade terms. This contrasts with terms like "gladius," which seems to be a strongly defined, two-edged military short sword used by the infantry.

"Sicarius" makes sense as a category, too. After all, in English we have gunmen, hatchetmen, hired knives, etc. The term "Sicarius" seems to belong to the same category. Terms like hatchetman are a bit different from, say, swordsman or gladiator, after all.

My 0.02 denarii,

Fearn

[fernando]

Hi Fearn
Quite Right.
It is all about a generic, with a prevailing necessity for an adding term or context, to make the difference, both in form, purpose and conotation.
One can follow the source of the modern english Sickle, ex-midlle english Sikel, ex-old english Sicol; it derives from latin Sêcula (vulgar Sicila), as Secãre for cutting. Therefore a term of generic base, like calling it a cutter, reason why Plinius used a two word term to refer the intended object by its shape : Dentium Sicas, as it resembled a tooth ( of an hippo ... ).
Passing by Jewish lands, one could admit that the sica for them was a usefull roman generic handy dagger, with no need for a more precise name. The conotation given by romans ( Flavius Josephus ) and others, to perjorate on the guys that used daggers on a massive subversive sense, doesn't apply for the shape or conotation of the piece per se.
Then you get to Rome, when they needed to call a name to the dagger brought by the Thracians; again a double word term: Sica Supina, from supination, a sort of laying bent posture. However Juvenal's double word atribution to this Thracian ( and Dacian ) specific weapon , was twice meaningfull: Falx Supina ... Falx (Falce) being a determined anatomical form , like one in the brains.
Then i eventually pick the term used in (latin tongued) Portugal for Sickle, and the term is Foice, from prior Fouce, obviously the Falx derivation; here intended as a farming tool. When used as a weapon, in medieval times, attached to a long shaft, it had no precise names as popular as simply Fouce ( Sickle), only distinguished by the context. Amazingly the local farmers verb for reaping with the sickle is Segar, as in latin Secãre= cutting with Sica.
In a certain manner it is all entangled, like if languages are globalized for already long time.
Sorry for all the nonsense.
fernando