A beautiful 17th century hanger

Norman McCormick · 27th January 2019, 04:21 PM

Hi Guys,
This older thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=hunting may have some relevance to your discussion.
Regards,
Norman.

M ELEY · 29th January 2019, 01:23 AM

Norm, you are a life saver! This was the thread that I was speaking of, with comments by Jim McD. and Dmitry. As I stated also, I've seen identified English swords (usually early, pre-1750's) with the fleur-de-lis stamp...of course, per this thread, it could have been the German blade makers using the symbol all along. Interestingly, you will note the sword in post#9 of this old thread is an American Revolutionary War horseman's saber, yet it still has the "French" symbol.

Richard G · 29th January 2019, 02:53 PM

Some things I notice about the heads on this sword which may or may not have significance;-

William and Mary were made joint monarchs, but only one head is crowned.

The crowned head is on the inside of the guard when I would have assumed, being presumably the more important, it would be on the outside.

The head on the inside of the guard appears to be the wrong way round i.e. with the crown towards the grip. Certainly both heads are not the same orientation.

With respect to the fleur-de-lys see attached
https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/246...ngth=90&page=1

Regards
Richard

M ELEY · 29th January 2019, 04:13 PM

Hello Richard,

I, too, noticed the lack of a crown over the feminine (?) opposing faced head. I thought it odd and disrespectful, but then again, the German craftsmen might have been a little chauvinist perhaps?

Thanks for the pic from the other auction at least verifying that there are other so called William and Mary hangers out there (ouch! Sold for less than half of what I paid!)
Mark

Richard G · 29th January 2019, 07:37 PM

Mark,
It's a shame there were no more photo's on the Bonham's site. I'm sure I've seen more, but can't remember where or when, or much of the detail.
William and Mary coinage usually has a profile of each, one in front of the other, and guess who's always at the front?
Regards
Richard

Norman McCormick · 30th January 2019, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Norm, you are a life saver! This was the thread that I was speaking of, with comments by Jim McD. and Dmitry.

Mark you are very welcome

My Regards,
Norman.

M ELEY · 31st January 2019, 06:27 AM

Stumbled on this by complete accident. A relic from the Queen Anne's Revenge! Unfortunately, the pommel with the possible faces of William and Mary aren't displayed, just the guard. We do have the description, though, as well as another sword referenced in the Williamsburg collection.

https://www.qaronline.org/conservati...bladed-weapons

M ELEY · Yesterday, 06:21 PM

Revisiting this old thread with one possibility for the 'missing crown'. Just to add clarity to anyone coming in now on this thread, this hanger is 100% made for the English market and dates to 1690-1710 period based on style, construction and the historical record. During this time period, there were many articles made with the cameos of King William and Queen Mary. Items in the colonial Williamsburg museum collection reflect this, as does the sword I mentioned retrieved from the QAR shipwreck. I have seen references of swords with these likenesses, but unfortunately never seen actual pictures of them.

So...if these depictions truly are of William and Mary, why doesn't the profile of Mary bare a crown? One more possibility I came up with and seems to make sense is that Mary died in 1694. William continued to reign until his own death in 1702. I think it is therefore possible that this sword guard could have been cast after Mary's death, showing the living ruler's face in profile wearing the crown of England.

31st January 2019, 06:27 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,206	Remains of sword hilt Stumbled on this by complete accident. A relic from the Queen Anne's Revenge! Unfortunately, the pommel with the possible faces of William and Mary aren't displayed, just the guard. We do have the description, though, as well as another sword referenced in the Williamsburg collection. https://www.qaronline.org/conservati...bladed-weapons

27th January 2019, 04:21 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,646	Hi Guys, This older thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=hunting may have some relevance to your discussion. Regards, Norman.

29th January 2019, 01:23 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,206	Norm, you are a life saver! This was the thread that I was speaking of, with comments by Jim McD. and Dmitry. As I stated also, I've seen identified English swords (usually early, pre-1750's) with the fleur-de-lis stamp...of course, per this thread, it could have been the German blade makers using the symbol all along. Interestingly, you will note the sword in post#9 of this old thread is an American Revolutionary War horseman's saber, yet it still has the "French" symbol.

29th January 2019, 02:53 PM	#3
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 415	Some things I notice about the heads on this sword which may or may not have significance;- William and Mary were made joint monarchs, but only one head is crowned. The crowned head is on the inside of the guard when I would have assumed, being presumably the more important, it would be on the outside. The head on the inside of the guard appears to be the wrong way round i.e. with the crown towards the grip. Certainly both heads are not the same orientation. With respect to the fleur-de-lys see attached https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/246...ngth=90&page=1 Regards Richard

29th January 2019, 04:13 PM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,206	Hello Richard, I, too, noticed the lack of a crown over the feminine (?) opposing faced head. I thought it odd and disrespectful, but then again, the German craftsmen might have been a little chauvinist perhaps? Thanks for the pic from the other auction at least verifying that there are other so called William and Mary hangers out there (ouch! Sold for less than half of what I paid!) Mark

29th January 2019, 07:37 PM	#5
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 415	Mark, It's a shame there were no more photo's on the Bonham's site. I'm sure I've seen more, but can't remember where or when, or much of the detail. William and Mary coinage usually has a profile of each, one in front of the other, and guess who's always at the front? Regards Richard

Yesterday, 06:21 PM	#8
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,206	Revisiting this old thread with one possibility for the 'missing crown'. Just to add clarity to anyone coming in now on this thread, this hanger is 100% made for the English market and dates to 1690-1710 period based on style, construction and the historical record. During this time period, there were many articles made with the cameos of King William and Queen Mary. Items in the colonial Williamsburg museum collection reflect this, as does the sword I mentioned retrieved from the QAR shipwreck. I have seen references of swords with these likenesses, but unfortunately never seen actual pictures of them. So...if these depictions truly are of William and Mary, why doesn't the profile of Mary bare a crown? One more possibility I came up with and seems to make sense is that Mary died in 1694. William continued to reign until his own death in 1702. I think it is therefore possible that this sword guard could have been cast after Mary's death, showing the living ruler's face in profile wearing the crown of England.