A beautiful 17th century hanger

M ELEY · 26th January 2019, 05:07 AM

Thank you so much, Jim and David, for your input.

Jim, your dissertation, for that truly is what it is, presents a thorough support for the hanger and I'm glad you like it! I remember discussing the mortuary hilts and use of cherubim in past threads and it is very interesting that the two periods for such designs follow one another as they do. David does mention the fleur-de-lis, but I also recall that English sword makers used this symbol on pre-18th century swords (I just recently saw a brass so-called monster-head or doghead English naval cutlass from ca. 1680-90 with the "fleur" on the blade.) I also recall a discussion somewhere in the many passages of the Forum where the English fleur-de-lis was actually attributed to an English blades smith? Have to do some searching for that one! In any case, glad you approve of the hanger, Cap'n Jim-

Mark

Jim McDougall · 26th January 2019, 06:16 AM

The fluer de lis really does throw people off as it is typically regarded as strictly French. Actually the three fluer de lis existed in the Royal arms of England until 1801. ….and as such did represent France in the heraldic circumstances that go back to Edward III.

It seems to have a lot broader connotations of course. Regarding the fluer de lis you mentioned as a makers mark in England, I dont think it was a makers mark but possibly a quality type mark. I believe there was a street named flier de lis street somewhere in England where blades were sold in bundles to 'sword slippers' but cannot recall more, but it was about mid 18th c. It might have been in Aylward or one of the references amidst the Shotley Bridge research.

You know it'll drive me nuts til I find it!

I think there was one or more of these blades in "Swords of Culloden". As you noted earlier though, there were some German smiths who used fluer de lis but these may have alluded to these used with Toledo blades in some cases.

26th January 2019, 05:07 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Thank you so much, Jim and David, for your input. Jim, your dissertation, for that truly is what it is, presents a thorough support for the hanger and I'm glad you like it! I remember discussing the mortuary hilts and use of cherubim in past threads and it is very interesting that the two periods for such designs follow one another as they do. David does mention the fleur-de-lis, but I also recall that English sword makers used this symbol on pre-18th century swords (I just recently saw a brass so-called monster-head or doghead English naval cutlass from ca. 1680-90 with the "fleur" on the blade.) I also recall a discussion somewhere in the many passages of the Forum where the English fleur-de-lis was actually attributed to an English blades smith? Have to do some searching for that one! In any case, glad you approve of the hanger, Cap'n Jim- Mark

26th January 2019, 06:16 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	The fluer de lis really does throw people off as it is typically regarded as strictly French. Actually the three fluer de lis existed in the Royal arms of England until 1801. ….and as such did represent France in the heraldic circumstances that go back to Edward III. It seems to have a lot broader connotations of course. Regarding the fluer de lis you mentioned as a makers mark in England, I dont think it was a makers mark but possibly a quality type mark. I believe there was a street named flier de lis street somewhere in England where blades were sold in bundles to 'sword slippers' but cannot recall more, but it was about mid 18th c. It might have been in Aylward or one of the references amidst the Shotley Bridge research. You know it'll drive me nuts til I find it! I think there was one or more of these blades in "Swords of Culloden". As you noted earlier though, there were some German smiths who used fluer de lis but these may have alluded to these used with Toledo blades in some cases.