A beautiful 17th century hanger

M ELEY · 23rd January 2019, 04:12 PM

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly, Richard. He was kind of an #@!!*. He is depicted pretty accurately in an interesting movie 'Admiral' (2016). I wasn't throwing rays of sunshine his way by any means. Still, he was an important ruler whose image was impressed on many items of the time (linens, table wares, etc).

But what do you think of the sword?

Mark

Jim McDougall · 25th January 2019, 06:19 PM

Hey Capn Mark!
I have been remiss in not heralding in the arrival of the new blade in your armoury!!! It is fantastic, and as you have well pointed out, a good 17th century hanger (latter) and with a stout 'Wundes' blade.

I would note here for your benefit, as a faithful pirate author, this is nearly identical to the 'Admiral Benbow' sword (Annis "Naval Swords" if I recall), and that was the name of the inn, in "Treasure Island" !

I had one of these same hangers some years back, but cannot recall maker it was either Wirsberg or Wundes, the mark looked like a sextant.

Your account of this period was as well put as can be said of these times, and the favor or disfavor of these monarchs depends on who you're talking with. It has nothing to do with misunderstanding the history, its that there could not have been more complexity involved. In the Jacobite rebellions the reasons were far more complex than simply Catholic vs. Protestant, much of it involved a culture in decline, and Highlander vs. Lowlander does not even work as there were no clear lines of demarcation.
I would leave that for other discussions, but again to the piracy matter, Blackbeard's ship, the "Queen Annes Revenge" suggests a Jacobite connotation.

Regarding these hangers, they were typically hilted in England, and from the time of the Hounslow works, one of the primary types were naval hangers.
Stuart Mowbray's book on English military swords is the best source ever!
While this example is considerably later than Hounslow, the Shotley Bridge works were well in place by its period. There were numbers of hangers brought in from Germany (the exit port for German blades was typically Rotterdam) and it is unclear whether these came in already hilted, or just the blades.....records indicate 'hangers'.

The cherubs etc. were among themes which were in place from earlier in the century, and the figures of period personages is in line of course with the well known 'mortuary' swords (thought to be called that for the executed Charles I) but such figures actually predated that event.

An outstanding piece Mark!!! which is perfectly placed in your collection and the times which are the theme in your exciting novels!!!!!

Jim McDougall · 25th January 2019, 11:04 PM

Going further in analysis on this, finally found my copy of "Naval Swords" (Annis, 1970) and the portrait and sword I was thinking of. On pp.24-25 a hanger remarkably like Mark's (this one c.1700) with stag horn etc. The portrait was of John Benbow (1653-1701) who was a captain in the Royal Navy 1689; and achieved flag rank becoming Commander in Chief in West Indies. He was killed in action with a French squadron in 1701.

Surely the West Indies connection was in mind for Stevenson when he wrote "Treasure Island" in 1883, and Benbow predated the settings of Stevenson's story estimated mid 18th c.

With the decoration in the hilt, as always, a great deal can be read into the theme. Cherubs (or 'putto') are often featured in Baroque art as the fluer de lis is , and this form of 17th century+ art is typically associated with the Catholic Faith. However in Holland it was deemed to have less religious connotation.
The 'cherubs' (often winged) can represent the flight of death, or may reflect the omnipresence of God, and of course various interpretations.
As far as I have known, there is no particular association in Germany with cherub use in theme as far as on swords. There is as always a great deal of lore surrounding blade centers toward quenching of them in river waters etc. and the same is found in Spain and others.

It would be hard to say what royal figures are represented here, but the crowns of course suggest that association. As noted, the faces are not necessarily commemorative to specific figures. Among these themes in English swords are also figures such as 'the green man'; moon type faces; and others.

In Annis (op.cit p.25) it notes the kings head mark on the blade of the example (the mark of the Wundes family et al. through 17th c) though Annis claims it is unidentified, but that"... it is almost certainly German, and it is entirely possible that the whole sword was made in that country".

We have found in research on the Shotley Bridge enterprise that blades from Germany indeed came into England from Rotterdam in this latter 17th century period. It seems entirely possible that blades from Solingen may have been hilted in Holland for sale in England. It is well known that the styles favored with Dutch and English swords ran very close and through the 18th c as well.

David I just noticed your post and we crossed posts......those are indeed fluer de lis, which appear surprisingly frequently in English motif of these times and even in blade markings in the 18th c. .

M ELEY · 26th January 2019, 05:07 AM

Thank you so much, Jim and David, for your input.

Jim, your dissertation, for that truly is what it is, presents a thorough support for the hanger and I'm glad you like it! I remember discussing the mortuary hilts and use of cherubim in past threads and it is very interesting that the two periods for such designs follow one another as they do. David does mention the fleur-de-lis, but I also recall that English sword makers used this symbol on pre-18th century swords (I just recently saw a brass so-called monster-head or doghead English naval cutlass from ca. 1680-90 with the "fleur" on the blade.) I also recall a discussion somewhere in the many passages of the Forum where the English fleur-de-lis was actually attributed to an English blades smith? Have to do some searching for that one! In any case, glad you approve of the hanger, Cap'n Jim-

Mark

Jim McDougall · 26th January 2019, 06:16 AM

The fluer de lis really does throw people off as it is typically regarded as strictly French. Actually the three fluer de lis existed in the Royal arms of England until 1801. ….and as such did represent France in the heraldic circumstances that go back to Edward III.

It seems to have a lot broader connotations of course. Regarding the fluer de lis you mentioned as a makers mark in England, I dont think it was a makers mark but possibly a quality type mark. I believe there was a street named flier de lis street somewhere in England where blades were sold in bundles to 'sword slippers' but cannot recall more, but it was about mid 18th c. It might have been in Aylward or one of the references amidst the Shotley Bridge research.

You know it'll drive me nuts til I find it!

I think there was one or more of these blades in "Swords of Culloden". As you noted earlier though, there were some German smiths who used fluer de lis but these may have alluded to these used with Toledo blades in some cases.

23rd January 2019, 04:12 PM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,158	Oh, I agree wholeheartedly, Richard. He was kind of an #@!!*. He is depicted pretty accurately in an interesting movie 'Admiral' (2016). I wasn't throwing rays of sunshine his way by any means. Still, he was an important ruler whose image was impressed on many items of the time (linens, table wares, etc). But what do you think of the sword? Mark

25th January 2019, 06:19 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Hey Capn Mark! I have been remiss in not heralding in the arrival of the new blade in your armoury!!! It is fantastic, and as you have well pointed out, a good 17th century hanger (latter) and with a stout 'Wundes' blade. I would note here for your benefit, as a faithful pirate author, this is nearly identical to the 'Admiral Benbow' sword (Annis "Naval Swords" if I recall), and that was the name of the inn, in "Treasure Island" ! I had one of these same hangers some years back, but cannot recall maker it was either Wirsberg or Wundes, the mark looked like a sextant. Your account of this period was as well put as can be said of these times, and the favor or disfavor of these monarchs depends on who you're talking with. It has nothing to do with misunderstanding the history, its that there could not have been more complexity involved. In the Jacobite rebellions the reasons were far more complex than simply Catholic vs. Protestant, much of it involved a culture in decline, and Highlander vs. Lowlander does not even work as there were no clear lines of demarcation. I would leave that for other discussions, but again to the piracy matter, Blackbeard's ship, the "Queen Annes Revenge" suggests a Jacobite connotation. Regarding these hangers, they were typically hilted in England, and from the time of the Hounslow works, one of the primary types were naval hangers. Stuart Mowbray's book on English military swords is the best source ever! While this example is considerably later than Hounslow, the Shotley Bridge works were well in place by its period. There were numbers of hangers brought in from Germany (the exit port for German blades was typically Rotterdam) and it is unclear whether these came in already hilted, or just the blades.....records indicate 'hangers'. The cherubs etc. were among themes which were in place from earlier in the century, and the figures of period personages is in line of course with the well known 'mortuary' swords (thought to be called that for the executed Charles I) but such figures actually predated that event. An outstanding piece Mark!!! which is perfectly placed in your collection and the times which are the theme in your exciting novels!!!!!

25th January 2019, 11:04 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Going further in analysis on this, finally found my copy of "Naval Swords" (Annis, 1970) and the portrait and sword I was thinking of. On pp.24-25 a hanger remarkably like Mark's (this one c.1700) with stag horn etc. The portrait was of John Benbow (1653-1701) who was a captain in the Royal Navy 1689; and achieved flag rank becoming Commander in Chief in West Indies. He was killed in action with a French squadron in 1701. Surely the West Indies connection was in mind for Stevenson when he wrote "Treasure Island" in 1883, and Benbow predated the settings of Stevenson's story estimated mid 18th c. With the decoration in the hilt, as always, a great deal can be read into the theme. Cherubs (or 'putto') are often featured in Baroque art as the fluer de lis is , and this form of 17th century+ art is typically associated with the Catholic Faith. However in Holland it was deemed to have less religious connotation. The 'cherubs' (often winged) can represent the flight of death, or may reflect the omnipresence of God, and of course various interpretations. As far as I have known, there is no particular association in Germany with cherub use in theme as far as on swords. There is as always a great deal of lore surrounding blade centers toward quenching of them in river waters etc. and the same is found in Spain and others. It would be hard to say what royal figures are represented here, but the crowns of course suggest that association. As noted, the faces are not necessarily commemorative to specific figures. Among these themes in English swords are also figures such as 'the green man'; moon type faces; and others. In Annis (op.cit p.25) it notes the kings head mark on the blade of the example (the mark of the Wundes family et al. through 17th c) though Annis claims it is unidentified, but that"... it is almost certainly German, and it is entirely possible that the whole sword was made in that country". We have found in research on the Shotley Bridge enterprise that blades from Germany indeed came into England from Rotterdam in this latter 17th century period. It seems entirely possible that blades from Solingen may have been hilted in Holland for sale in England. It is well known that the styles favored with Dutch and English swords ran very close and through the 18th c as well. David I just noticed your post and we crossed posts......those are indeed fluer de lis, which appear surprisingly frequently in English motif of these times and even in blade markings in the 18th c. .

26th January 2019, 05:07 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,158	Thank you so much, Jim and David, for your input. Jim, your dissertation, for that truly is what it is, presents a thorough support for the hanger and I'm glad you like it! I remember discussing the mortuary hilts and use of cherubim in past threads and it is very interesting that the two periods for such designs follow one another as they do. David does mention the fleur-de-lis, but I also recall that English sword makers used this symbol on pre-18th century swords (I just recently saw a brass so-called monster-head or doghead English naval cutlass from ca. 1680-90 with the "fleur" on the blade.) I also recall a discussion somewhere in the many passages of the Forum where the English fleur-de-lis was actually attributed to an English blades smith? Have to do some searching for that one! In any case, glad you approve of the hanger, Cap'n Jim- Mark

26th January 2019, 06:16 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	The fluer de lis really does throw people off as it is typically regarded as strictly French. Actually the three fluer de lis existed in the Royal arms of England until 1801. ….and as such did represent France in the heraldic circumstances that go back to Edward III. It seems to have a lot broader connotations of course. Regarding the fluer de lis you mentioned as a makers mark in England, I dont think it was a makers mark but possibly a quality type mark. I believe there was a street named flier de lis street somewhere in England where blades were sold in bundles to 'sword slippers' but cannot recall more, but it was about mid 18th c. It might have been in Aylward or one of the references amidst the Shotley Bridge research. You know it'll drive me nuts til I find it! I think there was one or more of these blades in "Swords of Culloden". As you noted earlier though, there were some German smiths who used fluer de lis but these may have alluded to these used with Toledo blades in some cases.