Spanish Morocco Berber sword

Kubur · 22nd January 2019, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Though fuzzy the label does indeed seem to state that the sword is from Morocco with an English blade, which is the first actual evidence we have that these may be from Africa. The decoration does not look Moroccan. Maybe we can compare these to Mauritanian daggers for better comparison in decoration, assuming these are from Southern Morocco/Western Sahara.

Yes precisely Sahara occidental, the Spanish part
and the sword that i posted yesterday is decorated like the Mukhala from the Agadir region...

Jim McDougall · 22nd January 2019, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Yes precisely Sahara occidental, the Spanish part
and the sword that i posted yesterday is decorated like the Mukhala from the Agadir region...

Hi Kubur

You clearly know Morocco well, and Western Sahara certainly did receive its share of the Spanish arms and blades we are talking about. It very likely was an entrepot in which these blades might have been produced (hilted) with the local 'embellishments'. This one seems beautifully done in silver with that red stone (I dare not guess what it is) and a well done copy of these 'Cuban' swords. It does seem that often in such places, such 'other ranks' swords and otherwise 'common' swords were sometimes commissioned from artisans for ceremonial wear.

Such 'upgraded' weapons fashioned in 'the manner of' the arms well known were often commissioned it seems in this way by either officers or perhaps dignitaries and possibly in diplomatic cases. Such instances are evident in Egypt during the Condominium, Aden in Arabia, various stations in India etc.

The one you posted is surely an anomaly and I can only guess (as above) at the circumstances. Whatever the case, it sure makes the one I have and most I have seen pretty much 'ugly ducklings'!!

Kubur · 23rd January 2019, 11:21 AM

Hi Jim, thank you for your kind words as always.
I do not think that is an anomaly, I've seen other swords from collectors and for sure from Morocco...
Now again I'm fully convinced by the other members, Fernando, Teodor and you that they are Spanish "colonial" swords "tropical machetes". But on their way to America it seems that they have been adopted in Morocco.
I think that you have a good point by saying that it's post Buttin collection.
But even if Buttin was a specialist of Morocco he didn't have a full range of North African swords, for example no Tunisian Berber sword...

Jim McDougall · 23rd January 2019, 05:02 PM

They are sincerely meant Kubur, you make insightful observations and always prompt more careful consideration in talking points in discussion. While you are more receptive to these groups of swords being from Spanish colonies in the America's...………..I have thought more on your example and think you must be correct, these may have been reproduced in degree in Morocco. The volume of their presence there may well have prompted these more ostentatious forms with silver and well embellished.

In retrospect, over the years I have seen other examples like the one you have shown in similar dress, but none I recall were jeweled. In these North African settings it does seem well established that various sword forms prompted a certain degree of reproduction if nothing but for their familiarity. Your example is a superb instance, especially in that it carries one of the blades from the Spanish colonial regions.

Rather than being 'commissioned' as I suggested, I would take more to your suggestion of these being hilted or produced in some degree in these Moroccan regions in perhaps an intent for sale. Either to local figures as status oriented accoutrements, or perhaps souvenirs, often these instances of course transcend, as locals often sell their weapons to visitors on request.
This presents an element of context to the purchaser, rather than buying it in a souk.....but naturally both venues are present.

In reconsidering the Buttin work I previously had not thought of the period of the catalog, and indeed, those curious Tunisian swords which have been observed consistently in recent years appear seem to have been quite distinctly oriented from those regions, and are not represented in his catalogs. His period of study while residing in Morocco lasted many years, however this was some time before his catalogs were published by his son posthumously in 1933. As these, and the Spanish colonial swords in discussion seem to occur later in these regions, they were probably not included in his holdings while active.

Thank you for these most constructive and helpful responses Kubur, I think we are getting much more perspective on these interesting weapons.

23rd January 2019, 11:21 AM	#3
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi Jim, thank you for your kind words as always. I do not think that is an anomaly, I've seen other swords from collectors and for sure from Morocco... Now again I'm fully convinced by the other members, Fernando, Teodor and you that they are Spanish "colonial" swords "tropical machetes". But on their way to America it seems that they have been adopted in Morocco. I think that you have a good point by saying that it's post Buttin collection. But even if Buttin was a specialist of Morocco he didn't have a full range of North African swords, for example no Tunisian Berber sword...

23rd January 2019, 05:02 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	They are sincerely meant Kubur, you make insightful observations and always prompt more careful consideration in talking points in discussion. While you are more receptive to these groups of swords being from Spanish colonies in the America's...………..I have thought more on your example and think you must be correct, these may have been reproduced in degree in Morocco. The volume of their presence there may well have prompted these more ostentatious forms with silver and well embellished. In retrospect, over the years I have seen other examples like the one you have shown in similar dress, but none I recall were jeweled. In these North African settings it does seem well established that various sword forms prompted a certain degree of reproduction if nothing but for their familiarity. Your example is a superb instance, especially in that it carries one of the blades from the Spanish colonial regions. Rather than being 'commissioned' as I suggested, I would take more to your suggestion of these being hilted or produced in some degree in these Moroccan regions in perhaps an intent for sale. Either to local figures as status oriented accoutrements, or perhaps souvenirs, often these instances of course transcend, as locals often sell their weapons to visitors on request. This presents an element of context to the purchaser, rather than buying it in a souk.....but naturally both venues are present. In reconsidering the Buttin work I previously had not thought of the period of the catalog, and indeed, those curious Tunisian swords which have been observed consistently in recent years appear seem to have been quite distinctly oriented from those regions, and are not represented in his catalogs. His period of study while residing in Morocco lasted many years, however this was some time before his catalogs were published by his son posthumously in 1933. As these, and the Spanish colonial swords in discussion seem to occur later in these regions, they were probably not included in his holdings while active. Thank you for these most constructive and helpful responses Kubur, I think we are getting much more perspective on these interesting weapons.