Spanish Morocco Berber sword

Jim McDougall · 22nd January 2019, 04:32 PM

Fernando thank you for the interpreted material from Calvo, that explains a lot of what I had presumed toward the Guanabacoa term as well as the machete Cubanos term. It does seem there was some Spanish production as you note the Toledo reference which Marc also specified some years ago.

It seems a lot of these swords were essentially forerunners of what became broadly termed machetes, and it seems that was primarily their function, the clearing of heavy undergrowth and vegetation in these tropical climes.

The 'Berber' sabres described in the OP, with the curious and distinctive hilts were typically with repurposed cavalry blades, which I have always thought in the way many were reprofiled at the tips. These to me seemed the resemble the blade point of kampilans or other such Philippines and archipelago weapons . That feature seemed to offer support for such influence from those regions and carried across the Spanish Main. That 'clipped' feature seems apparent on some of the 'Cubano' machete versions.

On the 'Berber' sabres, they had scabbards with a perpendicular protrusion at the end, which I was told was to hold the scabbard as the blade was withdrawn. Presumably it was often difficult with high humidity and heat as is the case with leather 'sweating'.
This noted pragmatism as well as weapons intended as machetes would seem to negate such designs for Moroccan regions as clearly this is not a tropical clime with such profuse vegetation. Some desert areas such as the Sonora of N. Mexico have dense undergrowth and chaparral, which was the main purpose of the espada ancha, but I do not think Morocco has that.

In the attached photos, the top is one of the 'Berber' sabres which has the M1796 blade reprofiled at the tip in the manner I described, and the scabbard has the protrusion remaining only partially in its base.
The museum case was in Barcelona and shows these along with an espada ancha.

fernando · 22nd January 2019, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... It seems a lot of these swords were essentially forerunners of what became broadly termed machetes, and it seems that was primarily their function, the clearing of heavy undergrowth and vegetation in these tropical climes ...

Precisely; the first paragraph in Calvó's article MACHETES DEL EJÉRCITO DE ULTRAMAR EN CUBA Y PUERTO RICO reads:
In the Antilles, the vegetation made of the jungle machetes an useful everyday working tool and its introduction as an equipment for its garrison forces is evidenced before 1868, in which started in Cuba the inssurectional movement.

On a different note, i don't catch whether the intention is to name the swords cased in the Barcelona Montjuic castle as Berber. I know that Don Calvó was himself the documentalist (and director ...) of this museum, which was still open when i have been there (2008?); although not with particular interest to read carefully all captions ... and the pictures i took were a disaster of quality. I regret that my picture of this case also shows unfocused captions, those clearly written in both Castillian and Catalan. Maybe someone with a better equipment can discern further .

.

fernando · 22nd January 2019, 06:05 PM

Morocco ??? ... with an English blade ???

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Kubur · 22nd January 2019, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Morocco ??? ... with an English blade ???

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Thanks god!
Or better god bless you!
Morocco was full of English blades for daggers, for swords and also English locks... I have a nimcha with a samuel harvey stamp just as an example.
Ibrahem posted many pictures of Moroccan ambassadors in London.
Now i'm sure that some forum members will say that the museum is wrong...
They are often wrong but not always...

TVV · 22nd January 2019, 08:34 PM

Though fuzzy the label does indeed seem to state that the sword is from Morocco with an English blade, which is the first actual evidence we have that these may be from Africa. The decoration does not look Moroccan. Maybe we can compare these to Mauritanian daggers for better comparison in decoration, assuming these are from Southern Morocco/Western Sahara.

Jim McDougall · 22nd January 2019, 09:10 PM

While Kubur is right, there were indeed early commercial contacts with England, and I have seen Moroccan sa'if s with ANDREA FERARA blades and we have seen later blades by MOLE deeper into the interior.

However as Teodor has noted, the motif and design of hits (the determinate factor as blades were diffused all over) is indeed 'Spanish' and not Moroccan. What is intriguing is the familiar hand 'nock' as seen on Moroccan sa'if.

My thoughts are that these forms, 'Berber' and guanabacoa (Cubano etc) are best regarded as 'Spanish Main' forms (thus Spanish colonial), and hilted in shops in these ports and entrepots in Central to South America as well as Cuba. .....which traveled as far as Philippines (as per findings in past discussions).

As I have mentioned, my example has a distinctly English blade (M1796 light cavalry) as I have an original M1796 and put together, the blades are an exact match (as Wayne showed in earlier discussion). Mine has been reprofiled but the fullers match exactly.

My example of the Brazilian espada with striated shell guard (as previously noted) has a British blade by Isaac & Co. (marked on blade back as with British convention in 19th c.).

My 'Berber' is also marked with MANUE(L) at the forte transversely as seen on other blades in these sabres with M1796 blades. Some can be read as MANUEL DE ……..rest obscured. This does NOT mean Morocco, but clearly an importer in the Spanish colonies in either Cuba or some other entrepot in these regions of Spanish colonization.

There were MANY surplus British M1796 blades in Spain after the Peninsular campaigns, and as well known many British blades were coming into both Portugal and Spain. As these campaigns ended, new patterns of sword were being developed in England for cavalry, so these stores of 'surplus' were either left, or sold off as required.
So YES...….plenty of British blades were out there, but I think these which came to Morocco were already mounted in Spanish hilts.

With other areas of the Sahara, it was much the same from Mali to Algeria and parts of Morocco to the French...….these French blades were common on many West African and Saharan swords. The troops cavalierly traded them off much as these Spanish troops in Moroccan regions did.

There is no doubt that many of these forms were 'found' in North African contexts, particularly Spanish Morocco...……..but the idea they were 'produced' there I do not agree with. I recall when I first began researching these about 21 yrs ago, and working with Pierce Chamberlain ("Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America" 1972) he admitted he had no idea on these forms, but over time contacted other sources. It was then that he wrote me when finding many of these in Cuban context. I had found the 'Berber' forms in Mexican collections, and we even found examples with clear Philippine or Indonesian mofif. Some of these had Filipino inscriptions from insurrection events there.

Kubur · 22nd January 2019, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Though fuzzy the label does indeed seem to state that the sword is from Morocco with an English blade, which is the first actual evidence we have that these may be from Africa. The decoration does not look Moroccan. Maybe we can compare these to Mauritanian daggers for better comparison in decoration, assuming these are from Southern Morocco/Western Sahara.

Yes precisely Sahara occidental, the Spanish part
and the sword that i posted yesterday is decorated like the Mukhala from the Agadir region...

Jim McDougall · 22nd January 2019, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Yes precisely Sahara occidental, the Spanish part
and the sword that i posted yesterday is decorated like the Mukhala from the Agadir region...

Hi Kubur

You clearly know Morocco well, and Western Sahara certainly did receive its share of the Spanish arms and blades we are talking about. It very likely was an entrepot in which these blades might have been produced (hilted) with the local 'embellishments'. This one seems beautifully done in silver with that red stone (I dare not guess what it is) and a well done copy of these 'Cuban' swords. It does seem that often in such places, such 'other ranks' swords and otherwise 'common' swords were sometimes commissioned from artisans for ceremonial wear.

Such 'upgraded' weapons fashioned in 'the manner of' the arms well known were often commissioned it seems in this way by either officers or perhaps dignitaries and possibly in diplomatic cases. Such instances are evident in Egypt during the Condominium, Aden in Arabia, various stations in India etc.

The one you posted is surely an anomaly and I can only guess (as above) at the circumstances. Whatever the case, it sure makes the one I have and most I have seen pretty much 'ugly ducklings'!!

fernando · 23rd January 2019, 08:15 PM

May we therefore tag the Machete Cubano as a most heterogeneous species ?
Starting by the particularity that Calvó always addresses its Cubano attribution between " ".
We have as origin of this discussion, Mahratt's first posted example with a Solingen (Beckman?) blade, then the actual models assigned to Cuban forces, then the 'Morocconized' decorated versions in Montjuic, not to forget the 'Berberized' possibility, the cherry on the cake would be the Collins (Hartford) version, stamped in Spanish and equipped with a shell guard, as pictured in 1895 in the hands of Cuban Army Officers.

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fernando · 24th January 2019, 12:04 PM

Go figure ...

The following is an email received from my acquainted Señor Juan L. Calvó:

Estimado Señor Viana,
Celebro tener noticias suyas. Los machetes de su interés, tengo entendido son dominicanos, propios de la etnia de la Isla de Santo Domingo. Esto me fue informado con posterioridad a la clausura del Museo, por lo que en su ficha me limite a anotar el origen apuntado por el coleccionista que cedió estas piezas,
Reciba un afectuoso saludo
Juan L. Calvó

Which in a rough translation we can read:

Those machetes in which you show interest are, as i have understood, ethnically Dominican, from the Santo Domingo island. This was informed after the museum closure, for i simply made note of such origin in their records, after being enlightened by the collector who has ceded these pieces (to the museum).

I realize this later information would have taken place during conversations had with the owning collector, when the Barcelona municipality decided to close the museum (2009) and requested them to withdraw their property.

Time we compare those examples from Barcelona examples to the one originally posted by Mahratt ... just saying

.

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Jim McDougall · 24th January 2019, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Go figure ...

The following is an email received from my acquainted Señor Juan L. Calvó:

Estimado Señor Viana,
Celebro tener noticias suyas. Los machetes de su interés, tengo entendido son dominicanos, propios de la etnia de la Isla de Santo Domingo. Esto me fue informado con posterioridad a la clausura del Museo, por lo que en su ficha me limite a anotar el origen apuntado por el coleccionista que cedió estas piezas,
Reciba un afectuoso saludo
Juan L. Calvó

Which in a rough translation we can read:

Those machetes in which you show interest are, as i have understood, ethnically Dominican, from the Santo Domingo island. This was informed after the museum closure, for i simply made note of such origin in their records, after being enlightened by the collector who has ceded these pieces (to the museum).

I realize this later information would have taken place during conversations had with the owning collector, when the Barcelona municipality decided to close the museum (2009) and requested them to withdraw their property.

Time we compare those examples from Barcelona examples to the one originally posted by Mahratt ... just saying

.

.

Well said Fernando, and the synopsis in your previous post was a perfectly orchestrated example of how complex the classification of ethnographic forms can be!
I think what we can take from the discussion exercise in this case is that these particular forms of machete/guanabacoa types seem to have developed at an uncertain location in the Spanish colonies sometime probably earlier to mid 19th c.

Obviously with the trade and other commerce in these regions and with the maritime routes throughout as a conduit, there was considerable diffusion of these forms. Therefore the futility of trying to assign a certain classification to them is made difficult by this.

I have thought for some time (again it has been two decades or more that these have been studied) that these are perhaps best broadly classified as Spanish colonial swords often in use as machetes.

Any regionally oriented assessment to specific examples of these may be best assessed and described by locally distinct 'dress or decoration' and key inscriptions or blade motif which obviously denote areas and/or period.

Clearly there are examples with Dominican inscriptions......so these illustrate presence there; similarly there are examples in Philippines so again.......and so on. I think Senor Calvo's paper is superb, and well illustrated.

Fernando's point is well made, and I think the discussion going forward will be well served by further examples and any notes on provenance when possible without focus on debating what to call them. The 'Berber' term is yet another example of collectors terms which we have come to use for colloquial uniformity for discussion and reference.

TVV · 25th January 2019, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Go figure ...

The following is an email received from my acquainted Señor Juan L. Calvó:

Estimado Señor Viana,
Celebro tener noticias suyas. Los machetes de su interés, tengo entendido son dominicanos, propios de la etnia de la Isla de Santo Domingo. Esto me fue informado con posterioridad a la clausura del Museo, por lo que en su ficha me limite a anotar el origen apuntado por el coleccionista que cedió estas piezas,
Reciba un afectuoso saludo
Juan L. Calvó

Which in a rough translation we can read:

Those machetes in which you show interest are, as i have understood, ethnically Dominican, from the Santo Domingo island. This was informed after the museum closure, for i simply made note of such origin in their records, after being enlightened by the collector who has ceded these pieces (to the museum).

I realize this later information would have taken place during conversations had with the owning collector, when the Barcelona municipality decided to close the museum (2009) and requested them to withdraw their property.

Time we compare those examples from Barcelona examples to the one originally posted by Mahratt ... just saying

.

.

Thank you Fernando,

So now the Montjuic examples have been confirmed to be Dominican as well. Personally, based on the factual evidence we have, for me these swords are Dominican. Others can make their own conclusions, my goal is to find what I believe is true for myself, not convince anyone in anything.

Kubur,

I see a nice silver hilted machete with a red stone. I am not sure I see clear parallels with North African rifle decoration, but am willing to look at a side by side comparison. Complex decorative motives are usually a better indicator than material used, and I do not see any particular decorative motif that can provide a good clue as to where the silver decoration was applied.

Regards,
Teodor

22nd January 2019, 04:32 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,297	Fernando thank you for the interpreted material from Calvo, that explains a lot of what I had presumed toward the Guanabacoa term as well as the machete Cubanos term. It does seem there was some Spanish production as you note the Toledo reference which Marc also specified some years ago. It seems a lot of these swords were essentially forerunners of what became broadly termed machetes, and it seems that was primarily their function, the clearing of heavy undergrowth and vegetation in these tropical climes. The 'Berber' sabres described in the OP, with the curious and distinctive hilts were typically with repurposed cavalry blades, which I have always thought in the way many were reprofiled at the tips. These to me seemed the resemble the blade point of kampilans or other such Philippines and archipelago weapons . That feature seemed to offer support for such influence from those regions and carried across the Spanish Main. That 'clipped' feature seems apparent on some of the 'Cubano' machete versions. On the 'Berber' sabres, they had scabbards with a perpendicular protrusion at the end, which I was told was to hold the scabbard as the blade was withdrawn. Presumably it was often difficult with high humidity and heat as is the case with leather 'sweating'. This noted pragmatism as well as weapons intended as machetes would seem to negate such designs for Moroccan regions as clearly this is not a tropical clime with such profuse vegetation. Some desert areas such as the Sonora of N. Mexico have dense undergrowth and chaparral, which was the main purpose of the espada ancha, but I do not think Morocco has that. In the attached photos, the top is one of the 'Berber' sabres which has the M1796 blade reprofiled at the tip in the manner I described, and the scabbard has the protrusion remaining only partially in its base. The museum case was in Barcelona and shows these along with an espada ancha. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 22nd January 2019 at 04:45 PM.

22nd January 2019, 06:05 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Morocco ??? ... with an English blade ??? . Attached Images

22nd January 2019, 09:10 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,297	While Kubur is right, there were indeed early commercial contacts with England, and I have seen Moroccan sa'if s with ANDREA FERARA blades and we have seen later blades by MOLE deeper into the interior. However as Teodor has noted, the motif and design of hits (the determinate factor as blades were diffused all over) is indeed 'Spanish' and not Moroccan. What is intriguing is the familiar hand 'nock' as seen on Moroccan sa'if. My thoughts are that these forms, 'Berber' and guanabacoa (Cubano etc) are best regarded as 'Spanish Main' forms (thus Spanish colonial), and hilted in shops in these ports and entrepots in Central to South America as well as Cuba. .....which traveled as far as Philippines (as per findings in past discussions). As I have mentioned, my example has a distinctly English blade (M1796 light cavalry) as I have an original M1796 and put together, the blades are an exact match (as Wayne showed in earlier discussion). Mine has been reprofiled but the fullers match exactly. My example of the Brazilian espada with striated shell guard (as previously noted) has a British blade by Isaac & Co. (marked on blade back as with British convention in 19th c.). My 'Berber' is also marked with MANUE(L) at the forte transversely as seen on other blades in these sabres with M1796 blades. Some can be read as MANUEL DE ……..rest obscured. This does NOT mean Morocco, but clearly an importer in the Spanish colonies in either Cuba or some other entrepot in these regions of Spanish colonization. There were MANY surplus British M1796 blades in Spain after the Peninsular campaigns, and as well known many British blades were coming into both Portugal and Spain. As these campaigns ended, new patterns of sword were being developed in England for cavalry, so these stores of 'surplus' were either left, or sold off as required. So YES...….plenty of British blades were out there, but I think these which came to Morocco were already mounted in Spanish hilts. With other areas of the Sahara, it was much the same from Mali to Algeria and parts of Morocco to the French...….these French blades were common on many West African and Saharan swords. The troops cavalierly traded them off much as these Spanish troops in Moroccan regions did. There is no doubt that many of these forms were 'found' in North African contexts, particularly Spanish Morocco...……..but the idea they were 'produced' there I do not agree with. I recall when I first began researching these about 21 yrs ago, and working with Pierce Chamberlain ("Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America" 1972) he admitted he had no idea on these forms, but over time contacted other sources. It was then that he wrote me when finding many of these in Cuban context. I had found the 'Berber' forms in Mexican collections, and we even found examples with clear Philippine or Indonesian mofif. Some of these had Filipino inscriptions from insurrection events there. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 22nd January 2019 at 09:23 PM.

23rd January 2019, 08:15 PM	#9
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	May we therefore tag the Machete Cubano as a most heterogeneous species ? Starting by the particularity that Calvó always addresses its Cubano attribution between " ". We have as origin of this discussion, Mahratt's first posted example with a Solingen (Beckman?) blade, then the actual models assigned to Cuban forces, then the 'Morocconized' decorated versions in Montjuic, not to forget the 'Berberized' possibility, the cherry on the cake would be the Collins (Hartford) version, stamped in Spanish and equipped with a shell guard, as pictured in 1895 in the hands of Cuban Army Officers. . Attached Images

24th January 2019, 12:04 PM	#10
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Breaking news ... Go figure ... The following is an email received from my acquainted Señor Juan L. Calvó: Estimado Señor Viana, Celebro tener noticias suyas. Los machetes de su interés, tengo entendido son dominicanos, propios de la etnia de la Isla de Santo Domingo. Esto me fue informado con posterioridad a la clausura del Museo, por lo que en su ficha me limite a anotar el origen apuntado por el coleccionista que cedió estas piezas, Reciba un afectuoso saludo Juan L. Calvó Which in a rough translation we can read: Those machetes in which you show interest are, as i have understood, ethnically Dominican, from the Santo Domingo island. This was informed after the museum closure, for i simply made note of such origin in their records, after being enlightened by the collector who has ceded these pieces (to the museum). I realize this later information would have taken place during conversations had with the owning collector, when the Barcelona municipality decided to close the museum (2009) and requested them to withdraw their property. Time we compare those examples from Barcelona examples to the one originally posted by Mahratt ... just saying . . Attached Images

22nd January 2019, 08:34 PM	#5
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	Though fuzzy the label does indeed seem to state that the sword is from Morocco with an English blade, which is the first actual evidence we have that these may be from Africa. The decoration does not look Moroccan. Maybe we can compare these to Mauritanian daggers for better comparison in decoration, assuming these are from Southern Morocco/Western Sahara.