Afghan Pistol

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks very much Stu, I couldn't find any useful list of these marks as my gun resources are limited. Very much appreciated.
Perhaps you are right on the HERBERT name inside, it probably has nothing to do with Liege......I think we are all agreed this is far too crudely marked for any possible Irish (British) production...….and for that matter, Liege work is far crisper etc.

The lettering on this is so clumsy, and as Corrado has noted, the broad arrow is absent. With the British proof marks, Afghans often used old components so it could be authentic old barrel.


It really is hard to determine composite weapons as not only were they refurbished during working lives, ersatz weapons in time of trouble but even more confounding is that innovative modern dealers and commercial interests do the same thing with parts.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The pistol is from Afghanistan. it is a copy >>>This is WHAT THEY TERM AN APPRENTICE PIECE DONE FOR THE TOURIST MARKET WHICH OTHER THAN SOME MILITARY PERSONNEL IS NON EXISTANT... IN KABUL SOUK YOU CAN SEE HUNDREDS OF THESE AND SIMILAR>>>FOR SOME REASON THEY ALWAYS MESS UP THE SPELLING AND BALANCE OF THE WORDS.

[corrado26]

.........and you really belief that this "HERBERT" written in a letter type like Times New Roman has been made in an Afghan backyard shop?
corrado26

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by corrado26

.........and you really belief that this "HERBERT" written in a letter type like Times New Roman has been made in an Afghan backyard shop?
corrado26

Yes I do believe it because I've seen it. I can show you a video of exactly the detailed expertise from the weapon making centres but for modern weapons … and actually there is a workshop near me making wooden parts for guns...artisans from Afghanistan. I wish I had taken pictures in Kabul but maybe I can get my friends there to take a few of them. They use all the old stamping kit including getting the letters with the little tails on them but quite often spell the name with letters reversed probably by mistake... and especially on Martini Henrys and pistols.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

The pistol is from Afghanistan. it is a copy >>>This is WHAT THEY TERM AN APPRENTICE PIECE DONE FOR THE TOURIST MARKET WHICH OTHER THAN SOME MILITARY PERSONNEL IS NON EXISTANT... IN KABUL SOUK YOU CAN SEE HUNDREDS OF THESE AND SIMILAR>>>FOR SOME REASON THEY ALWAYS MESS UP THE SPELLING AND BALANCE OF THE WORDS.

.......so what is your explanation of the genuine English Proof marks on the barrel? I find it hard to believe that anyone making pistols for the "Tourist" market would bother to try and fake these.
As a matter of general interest, and to add to library pics, could you please post some pics of the Kabul souk showing these "hundreds" of pistols. I'm sure that others here would be very interested to see these.
Stu

[fernando]

It is well known that the different parts of firearms were made by different specialized smiths, in their own shops and then sent to assembly.
Before mechanization systems were implemented, manual output had (slight) measurement variations, the various parts of an assembly having to be "fine tuned", i.e., adjusted to accomodate their specific partner. It is expectable that the stock, being the softer part, had to be adjusted to its barrel ... and lock. This system is evidentiated by the cuts we can see in this stock mortise; it would be no surprise to find the same number of cuts underneath its chosen barrel*, if still being the case ... as also inside the lock plate.
I do not see why Mr. Herbert was not the head of the Liegeoise workshop where this stock came from

*As per illustrated example.


.

[corrado26]

As I wrote in post #10 I think that the stock and the iron mounts are totally new, to produce such items it needs heavy machinery and I have my severe doubts wether such machinery could have been in use in Afghanistan during the second half of the 19th century.

But if it is true what is written by Ibrahiim al Balooshi, that this is an "APPRENTICE PIECE DONE FOR THE TOURIST MARKET WHICH OTHER THAN SOME MILITARY PERSONNEL IS NON EXISTANT... IN KABUL SOUK YOU CAN SEE HUNDREDS OF THESE AND SIMILAR", than this means that the pistol is a very modern tourist item made during the last decades and has nothing to do with an antique pistol. Then it is probably worthless to have long discussions about it!
corrado26

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Well I don't know if it is worth discussing but I would suggest if you look at the end of the 19thC you will find that the Kabul National weapons making arsenal not only leaked like a sieve but that quite accurate weapons making machinery mysteriously vanished and resurfaced in what we would term back street workshops which to thus day turn out reasonable modern copies. I recall a good discussion on the Machin Khana factory on library some time ago.
khanjar1 poses a question looking for picture evidence in Kabul chicken street main souk of evidence of the hundreds of old style pistols I claim to have seen there a few years ago...which if you know the place you would certainly not want to be seen taking photographs down there. However I found various clues on the web and one in particular from just one small shop in the same souk complex with a lot of weapons in it... there are hundreds of such shops in chicken street just like this ...I also show guns from Darra down the Khyber on the Pakistan side.
The Martini Henry pistol is interesting and a good explanation sits at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTvxFNRLbiw

[Fernando K]

Hello

To more of everything that has been written here, the cap of the stock is of modern weapon, and it is not seen which is the method of fastening Is it a screw? Normally it is held by a spring. In addition, the wood is simply fitted and not dug.

affectionately

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Well I don't know if it is worth discussing but I would suggest if you look at the end of the 19thC you will find that the Kabul National weapons making arsenal not only leaked like a sieve but that quite accurate weapons making machinery mysteriously vanished and resurfaced in what we would term back street workshops which to thus day turn out reasonable modern copies. I recall a good discussion on the Machin Khana factory on library some time ago.
khanjar1 poses a question looking for picture evidence in Kabul chicken street main souk of evidence of the hundreds of old style pistols I claim to have seen there a few years ago...which if you know the place you would certainly not want to be seen taking photographs down there. However I found various clues on the web and one in particular from just one small shop in the same souk complex with a lot of weapons in it... there are hundreds of such shops in chicken street just like this ...I also show guns from Darra down the Khyber on the Pakistan side.
The Martini Henry pistol is interesting and a good explanation sits at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTvxFNRLbiw

Thanks very much for the pics. It would be interesting to dig thru the guns shown but not probably a safe project for now..........
Stu