Classifying shashka--a serious discussion of typology

[ariel]

This is just a guardless saber, the examples of which can be seen in a variety of places, from Sardinia and Negev to India and Indonesia.
Each one of them had its own history, ethnic origin, mythology and name. To call them all "shashka" is akin to calling Indian Dhup, Omani Kattara and Turkish mec an "espada".

"Now about the terminology. Such subjects were first described by Russian military and ethnographers in the 1870s. Russian researchers called them then "shashka". (This is confirmed by numerous written sources of the time.)

These swords were in existence well before Russian invasion and occupation of Central Asia, so the credit goes to the original owners and not to the invaders. Russians called and still call these weapons " shashkas" through appropriation of the name given to this weapon by conquered Circassians who were exiled from their ancestral land, and we would be ill-advised to follow in their steps.

"The fact that the respected Torben Flindt, following even the more respected Ole Olufsen, calls this weapon "saber" is only a lack of information.
By the way, in modern Russian literature on weapons such subjects are is always called "shashkas"."



Well, I would not be bold enough to grade people as just "respected" or " even more respected", but snickering categorization of the groundbreaking chapter by Torben Flindt as " lack of information" would be laughable, had it not been grossly misinformed and utterly disrespectful. There is not a single book, chapter or paper written by modern or old Russian authors on the subject of Central Asian weapons. Perhaps, with the exception of an article by Botyakov and Yanborisov on bladed weapons of Turkmen tribes, that is not even addressing examples from Central Asian khanates.

As to the " authority" of modern Russian literature on Oriental weapons, it is produced largely by the authors who cannot read in any other language and who had not written anything comparable to Flindt's chapter.

"And probably, it is the Russians who know better what a checker is ."

For those of you not fluent in Russian, the name of the Caucasian saber " shashka" is homophonic with the Russian name for a game of checkers ( shashki). Google Translator could not catch a difference and neither did the author:-))

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

This is just a guardless saber, the examples of which can be seen in a variety of places, from Sardinia and Negev to India and Indonesia.
Each one of them had its own history, ethnic origin, mythology and name. To call them all "shashka" is akin to calling Indian Dhup, Omani Kattara and Turkish mec an "espada".

I see some lack of logic in this phrase. None of the listed items (Indian Dhup, Omani Kattara and Turkish mec) has ever been called a "shashka" by anyone. However, the Bukhara (Central Asian) shashkas are called the term "shashka" from the 1870s. Your personal understanding of how to call these subjects, based on the works of Lebedinsky and Torben Flindt, is solely your personal opinion.

Originally Posted by ariel

These swords were in existence well before Russian invasion and occupation of Central Asia, so the credit goes to the original owners and not to the invaders. Russians called and still call these weapons " shashkas" through appropriation of the name given to this weapon by conquered Circassians who were exiled from their ancestral land, and we would be ill-advised to follow in their steps.

Please tell us how long the Bukharian shashkas appeared before the "Russian invasion"? Maybe you have accurate information? And why then do you not insist on calling the Bukhara checkers the “ethnic name” that they were called in Central Asia? Why do you need to use the English word "sword"? (In this case, the names of Indian weapons, distorted by the British, for some reason do not bother you )
(And, by the way, why in this topic tell about the "Circassians", expelled from their land? Have you forgotten that at that time it was a common practice of fighting warlike nations? Likewise, Indians of North America were expelled from their land by settlers from Europe, who called themselves Americans. Moreover, settlers from Europe systematically destroyed the Indians and drove them to the reservation).
Russian researchers called the Bukhara shashkas the term "shashka" precisely because of the similarity with similar weapons in the Caucasus. Here you are absolutely right. And I don’t quite understand why you so ardently defend Lebedinsky’s term “pseudoshashka”, which he used at the end of the 20th century, when 100 years before him Bukhara shashkas were called “shashkas” without any “pseudo”

Originally Posted by ariel

Well, I would not be bold enough to grade people as just "respected" or " even more respected", but snickering categorization of the groundbreaking chapter by Torben Flindt as " lack of information" would be laughable, had it not been grossly misinformed and utterly disrespectful. There is not a single book, chapter or paper written by modern or old Russian authors on the subject of Central Asian weapons. Perhaps, with the exception of an article by Botyakov and Yanborisov on bladed weapons of Turkmen tribes, that is not even addressing examples from Central Asian khanates.
As to the " authority" of modern Russian literature on Oriental weapons, it is produced largely by the authors who cannot read in any other language and who had not written anything comparable to Flindt's chapter.

The fact that there is one article about the weapons of Central Asia of the respected Torben Flindt, which is based on the Danish collections, does not mean that everything that is written in this article is absolutely true ("verum in ultima instantia"). It only says that there are no more serious works on this topic.
I would really ask you to refrain from insulting attacks on Russian researchers. Although, as they say? "Attack is the best form of defence"

Originally Posted by ariel

For those of you not fluent in Russian, the name of the Caucasian saber " shashka" is homophonic with the Russian name for a game of checkers ( shashki). Google Translator could not catch a difference and neither did the author:-))

You are amazingly insightful regarding Google Translit Thank you for explaining to the forum participants the moment, where I did not correct the error, the automatic translation of Google Translit.