Is this a Black Sea Yatagan?

ariel · 30th December 2018, 08:53 PM

It is definitely NOT a Laz Bichaq.

I see very little if any resemblance of its scabbard to the Surmene knives or LB ones. It was also altered : see trouser belt.

The blade is very much of a generic Ottoman/Balkan configuration. I am not very supportive of a Bulgarian Karakulak : IMHO the blade profile is much too refined and elegant for a shepherd knife.

The ears are also generic, could be from anywhere but NOT of a Laz tradition.

It is a very decent run-of - the- mill Ottoman yataghan. Those were made in tens of thousands all over the Empire, but there is nothing to connect this one with several well-defined patterns: Laz, North Africa, Zejbek or Bulgaria.

Thus, my guess : Anatolia or Western Balkans.

sfenoid13 · 30th December 2018, 09:38 PM

The resemblance comes from the leather weave on the scabbard . Also the handle is not typical of the Anatolian T shape handles. As well as the makers mark on the blade is not common on Anatolian or Balkan Yatagans. Definitely an odd piece. Ariel, do you recognize the makers mark by any chance ? Looks like something you would find on a kindjal or qaddara.

ariel · 30th December 2018, 10:25 PM

Re: wrapping.
I see what you are referring to: some LB scabbards have a purely decorative panel of tightly woven thin leather ribbons, often black and green ( see attached pics) . Yours has a segment of non-patterned wrapping of a single ribbon that is very loose. My guess, this was not a decoration, but just a way of binding the scabbard to strengthen it.
Re. Anatolian yataghans.
T-pommel is specific only for Zeibek yataghans from Bursa area. This is one of the few infrequent yataghan patterns that is specifically recognized as belonging to a specific group ( see my earlier post).
The rest of Anatolian yataghans had garden variety ears.

Regretfully, I cannot decipher the stamp. Moreover, I cannot recall any LB with a bladesmith's stamp. If they exist, they must be very unusual.

sfenoid13 · 30th December 2018, 10:48 PM

Ariel, I’m just curious to see what else you have in collection, you have such a vast knowledge

. I am by the way from Bursa and familiar with Zeybek Yatagans and they are not usually from Bursa area but rather the Aegean coast, places like Izmir, Aydin and Afyon.Also I think the tightly vowen leather ribbons do have a purpose and they bind the scabbard cover with the leather piece that has a loop for the belt as to allow the knife to be hung from a belt or a rope around the waist. I have seen the same design in some Black Sea knives that I have. And I think it’s common style that comes from Black Sea or Surmene area specifically.
And the cartouche or the makers mark, i said was similar to those on kindjals or quaddaras and not on the LBs.
PS: I greatly enjoy the Laz Yatagan I got from you!
Thank you!

sfenoid13 · 30th December 2018, 11:13 PM

An example

sfenoid13 · 30th December 2018, 11:16 PM

And coupes Black Sea knives with similar vowen leather scabbards

OsobistGB · 31st December 2018, 12:10 AM

Your yatagan is probably from the Trabzon region.Not much to do with

laz biçak / karadeniz yatağan.
Here are some pictures of mine laz biçak.

30th December 2018, 10:25 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Re: wrapping. I see what you are referring to: some LB scabbards have a purely decorative panel of tightly woven thin leather ribbons, often black and green ( see attached pics) . Yours has a segment of non-patterned wrapping of a single ribbon that is very loose. My guess, this was not a decoration, but just a way of binding the scabbard to strengthen it. Re. Anatolian yataghans. T-pommel is specific only for Zeibek yataghans from Bursa area. This is one of the few infrequent yataghan patterns that is specifically recognized as belonging to a specific group ( see my earlier post). The rest of Anatolian yataghans had garden variety ears. Regretfully, I cannot decipher the stamp. Moreover, I cannot recall any LB with a bladesmith's stamp. If they exist, they must be very unusual. Attached Images

30th December 2018, 11:13 PM	#5
sfenoid13 Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 134	An example Attached Images

30th December 2018, 11:16 PM	#6
sfenoid13 Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 134	And coupes Black Sea knives with similar vowen leather scabbards Attached Images

31st December 2018, 12:10 AM	#7
OsobistGB Member Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 95	Your yatagan is probably from the Trabzon region.Not much to do with laz biçak / karadeniz yatağan. Here are some pictures of mine laz biçak. Attached Images

30th December 2018, 08:53 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	It is definitely NOT a Laz Bichaq. I see very little if any resemblance of its scabbard to the Surmene knives or LB ones. It was also altered : see trouser belt. The blade is very much of a generic Ottoman/Balkan configuration. I am not very supportive of a Bulgarian Karakulak : IMHO the blade profile is much too refined and elegant for a shepherd knife. The ears are also generic, could be from anywhere but NOT of a Laz tradition. It is a very decent run-of - the- mill Ottoman yataghan. Those were made in tens of thousands all over the Empire, but there is nothing to connect this one with several well-defined patterns: Laz, North Africa, Zejbek or Bulgaria. Thus, my guess : Anatolia or Western Balkans.

30th December 2018, 09:38 PM	#2
sfenoid13 Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 134	The resemblance comes from the leather weave on the scabbard . Also the handle is not typical of the Anatolian T shape handles. As well as the makers mark on the blade is not common on Anatolian or Balkan Yatagans. Definitely an odd piece. Ariel, do you recognize the makers mark by any chance ? Looks like something you would find on a kindjal or qaddara.

30th December 2018, 10:48 PM	#4
sfenoid13 Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 134	Ariel, I’m just curious to see what else you have in collection, you have such a vast knowledge . I am by the way from Bursa and familiar with Zeybek Yatagans and they are not usually from Bursa area but rather the Aegean coast, places like Izmir, Aydin and Afyon.Also I think the tightly vowen leather ribbons do have a purpose and they bind the scabbard cover with the leather piece that has a loop for the belt as to allow the knife to be hung from a belt or a rope around the waist. I have seen the same design in some Black Sea knives that I have. And I think it’s common style that comes from Black Sea or Surmene area specifically. And the cartouche or the makers mark, i said was similar to those on kindjals or quaddaras and not on the LBs. PS: I greatly enjoy the Laz Yatagan I got from you! Thank you!