Indian Whotsit for comment:

kronckew · 5th December 2018, 07:42 PM

Item arrived late this afternoon from Isle of Mann, Only paid them Tues. Must have made all the connections perfectly, came in thru Bristol, just south of me

Anyhow, I am a happy chappy. blade is basically fine, a little surface rust, the auction picture is very misleading. No major pitting evident. pommel disk a bit wobbly, the 'horn' is solid tho, as is the rest of the grip. The blade is a bit flexible, distal tapered, Single edged, narrow fuller along the spine, and a wider one on the centre line. Tip is sharp, rounded. there is a distinct raised straight yelman about 6 in., sharp, as is the rest of the blade. NO nicks in the field sharp edge.

Obvious markings are three circles with centre dots in a triangle near the end of the tri-lobed languet on both sides. The two side lobes of the languet end have centre holes and the un-holed centre lobe has a small spire. oddly, the yelman has a single dotted circle stamp either side right near the spine juncture. The yelman is only about an eight of an inch higher than the flat spine. A bit of elbow grease with scotchbrite and this warhorse would be ready to fight another war. Grip is essentially quite comfortable in a hammer grip, Or even more with a finger over the guard. There is a rough patch on the lower cross guard, and a corresponding patch on the pommel disk where obviously a flat finger bow had been, about a half in wide. It's being missing is likely why the disk moves a bit.

It looks an awful lot like this blade is Wootz as well!

Pictures to follow when I clean her up a bit.

Jim McDougall · 5th December 2018, 09:05 PM

From the Isle of Mann!!!!! Now that's an unusual neighborhood for this to be in.
This has every appearance of a Rajput weapon in my thinking, the canted stem very much as often found on the Khanda hilt (or firangi). It seems these pierced langets are something seen in the northwest, often into Afghan regions. The Rajputs are of course known for their use of both the tulwar and khanda. The amalgamation of both forms as seen here may explain the unusual character of this wonderfully static piece.

Here I would point out that Scottish units in the British Army were quite well represented in India during the Raj (I have seen photos of Indian figures in native regiments in Khyber regions with Scottish basket hilts). It would be tempting to consider the unusual provenance of this clearly untouched Indian sword may suggest it could have been a 'bringback' from a soldier in one of these Scottish units in the 19th c. Often these kinds of things remain in estates for generations.

Nicely done Wayne.......now we have this stately old warrior for posterity and it may have stories to tell us

kronckew · 5th December 2018, 10:02 PM

I was afraid they'd not be able to post it reasonably, had a quote from another auction place there a few monts ago that was outrageous. They did it for a little less than what others charged me here on the big island

. When I called to pay the piper, They initially asked if I was on the island. I laughed and told them no, and I wasn't going to swim that far either (they do have a ferry). they then added in the P&P. The sword must have come air mail. Isle of Mann has a different Govt. setup than the rest of the UK, they do everything by what I think of as Vermont Town Meetings. A holdover from viking era, It's a scandawegian 'Thing'. Even their Manx cats are weird, the are born tail-less. Weird stuff pops up in weird places around here in the British Isles...

The 'Thing' is interesting: https://youtu.be/H3JqzTqcIsg

Manx Cat - go from completely tail-less to very short tails. Stubby to half tailed ones are healthier.

kronckew · 6th December 2018, 12:09 PM

Gets more interesting. Scotchbrighted the blade to get off the red stuff, found another set of 3 dotted circles in a triangle near the blade tip either side. Also found a row of approx. 10 smaller dotted circles almost on the blade edges, almost touching each other, disappearing under the resin holding the blade.
the cross-guard and grip section appear to be in two pieces. they have a line of sheet metal between them, the cross-guard on the side where I thought a finger bow guard may have attached doesn't look like anything was. that one has a flat spot from the remains of the sheet metal to a square corner, also on the upper squillion. Looks almost like a bowl guard was once there behind the cross-guard. Like this fancier one I found on the internet:

Jens Nordlunde · 23rd December 2018, 09:33 PM

Did we ever see a picture of the sword after you got it???

kronckew · 23rd December 2018, 11:31 PM

Aa few better ones, red stuff removed and oiled:

Jens Nordlunde · 6th January 2019, 03:43 PM

Is there a hole in one of the quillons?
All the dotted circles are a riddle to me, but the hilt looks a bit like the hilts used by the Talpurs of Sind, although I doubt it is from there.
How broad is the attachment of the hand guard at the disc?

5th December 2018, 10:02 PM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,239	I was afraid they'd not be able to post it reasonably, had a quote from another auction place there a few monts ago that was outrageous. They did it for a little less than what others charged me here on the big island . When I called to pay the piper, They initially asked if I was on the island. I laughed and told them no, and I wasn't going to swim that far either (they do have a ferry). they then added in the P&P. The sword must have come air mail. Isle of Mann has a different Govt. setup than the rest of the UK, they do everything by what I think of as Vermont Town Meetings. A holdover from viking era, It's a scandawegian 'Thing'. Even their Manx cats are weird, the are born tail-less. Weird stuff pops up in weird places around here in the British Isles... The 'Thing' is interesting: https://youtu.be/H3JqzTqcIsg Manx Cat - go from completely tail-less to very short tails. Stubby to half tailed ones are healthier. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 6th December 2018 at 01:08 PM.

6th December 2018, 12:09 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,239	Gets more interesting. Scotchbrighted the blade to get off the red stuff, found another set of 3 dotted circles in a triangle near the blade tip either side. Also found a row of approx. 10 smaller dotted circles almost on the blade edges, almost touching each other, disappearing under the resin holding the blade. the cross-guard and grip section appear to be in two pieces. they have a line of sheet metal between them, the cross-guard on the side where I thought a finger bow guard may have attached doesn't look like anything was. that one has a flat spot from the remains of the sheet metal to a square corner, also on the upper squillion. Looks almost like a bowl guard was once there behind the cross-guard. Like this fancier one I found on the internet: Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 6th December 2018 at 01:01 PM.

23rd December 2018, 11:31 PM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,239	Aa few better ones, red stuff removed and oiled: Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 24th December 2018 at 12:33 AM.

5th December 2018, 07:42 PM	#1
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,239	Item arrived late this afternoon from Isle of Mann, Only paid them Tues. Must have made all the connections perfectly, came in thru Bristol, just south of me Anyhow, I am a happy chappy. blade is basically fine, a little surface rust, the auction picture is very misleading. No major pitting evident. pommel disk a bit wobbly, the 'horn' is solid tho, as is the rest of the grip. The blade is a bit flexible, distal tapered, Single edged, narrow fuller along the spine, and a wider one on the centre line. Tip is sharp, rounded. there is a distinct raised straight yelman about 6 in., sharp, as is the rest of the blade. NO nicks in the field sharp edge. Obvious markings are three circles with centre dots in a triangle near the end of the tri-lobed languet on both sides. The two side lobes of the languet end have centre holes and the un-holed centre lobe has a small spire. oddly, the yelman has a single dotted circle stamp either side right near the spine juncture. The yelman is only about an eight of an inch higher than the flat spine. A bit of elbow grease with scotchbrite and this warhorse would be ready to fight another war. Grip is essentially quite comfortable in a hammer grip, Or even more with a finger over the guard. There is a rough patch on the lower cross guard, and a corresponding patch on the pommel disk where obviously a flat finger bow had been, about a half in wide. It's being missing is likely why the disk moves a bit. It looks an awful lot like this blade is Wootz as well! Pictures to follow when I clean her up a bit.

5th December 2018, 09:05 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,476	From the Isle of Mann!!!!! Now that's an unusual neighborhood for this to be in. This has every appearance of a Rajput weapon in my thinking, the canted stem very much as often found on the Khanda hilt (or firangi). It seems these pierced langets are something seen in the northwest, often into Afghan regions. The Rajputs are of course known for their use of both the tulwar and khanda. The amalgamation of both forms as seen here may explain the unusual character of this wonderfully static piece. Here I would point out that Scottish units in the British Army were quite well represented in India during the Raj (I have seen photos of Indian figures in native regiments in Khyber regions with Scottish basket hilts). It would be tempting to consider the unusual provenance of this clearly untouched Indian sword may suggest it could have been a 'bringback' from a soldier in one of these Scottish units in the 19th c. Often these kinds of things remain in estates for generations. Nicely done Wayne.......now we have this stately old warrior for posterity and it may have stories to tell us

23rd December 2018, 09:33 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Did we ever see a picture of the sword after you got it???

6th January 2019, 03:43 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Is there a hole in one of the quillons? All the dotted circles are a riddle to me, but the hilt looks a bit like the hilts used by the Talpurs of Sind, although I doubt it is from there. How broad is the attachment of the hand guard at the disc?