kulah khud for comment

domayeux · 11th April 2006, 12:51 AM

Hi
just to put in comparison

I believe that one really Kadjar, not only because is mine

I'm using it as "avatar", but it's not only a picture

Rick · 11th April 2006, 02:29 AM

Are you not also the member "Dom" ?
You have a private message .
I strongly suggest you read it .

B.I · 11th April 2006, 08:59 AM

hi Valjhun,
aqtai has shown a good overall selection of helmets, but i think you need to choose the culture that is most appealing to you. finding any helmet (either persian or indian) of the 18thC or before is extremely hard, and very expensive. 19thC helmets were made on mass as they were mainly decorative pieces for an export market (the military raj bringing home 'trophies'). it is possible of course to find earlier examples, but definately not easy. there is a distinct difference between persian and indian and each suits a different taste.

Lee · 11th April 2006, 11:46 AM

Received by e-mail from forum lurker Steve:

I am not a member, but came to the "Kulah Khud" Helmet, and use to have one almost like it. An archeologist from Oklahoma, thought this type of Helmet was from the Moors, or Turkish, dating back to 1100 or 1200 AD. ?? My Helmet was really close to this one. Except my Helmet was all engraved on top, with silver enlay. It was also rusted from being buried. And the chain mail was still in tact. I hope this has been a little help. Thanks

B.I · 11th April 2006, 03:49 PM

hi,
it would be great if steve could post his helmet on here to discuss (and stop lurking and join in

)
i am afraid i have met my fair share of museum curators, heads of departments, cataloguers and archeologists - all of whom are extremely passionate about what they do and willing to help in any way they can whether the particular piece falls into their expertise or not. however, this can sometimes be very misleading.
i still stick to my initial opinion, but would love to see steves helmet and open up the discussion (even if via lee with steve remaining in the shadows

)

Aqtai · 11th April 2006, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by domayeux

Hi
just to put in comparison

I believe that one really Kadjar, not only because is mine

I'm using it as "avatar", but it's not only a picture

Dom, that is a gorgeous helmet, I'm feeling quite envious now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee

Received by e-mail from forum lurker Steve:

I am not a member, but came to the "Kulah Khud" Helmet, and use to have one almost like it. An archeologist from Oklahoma, thought this type of Helmet was from the Moors, or Turkish, dating back to 1100 or 1200 AD. ?? My Helmet was really close to this one. Except my Helmet was all engraved on top, with silver enlay. It was also rusted from being buried. And the chain mail was still in tact. I hope this has been a little help. Thanks

That is interesting Lee, I have few "buts" though.

If those dates are right that is one of the oldest "kulah khud" type helmets I have ever heard of. As far as I know the earliest "kulah khuds" date from the early 16th century AD. It's possible that Steve means 1100 or 1200 AH or Hijri, which would make that helmet about 200-300 years old which is far more plausible.

With regards to the provenance, the kulah khud style is of Iranian origin although it was also used in India and the Caucasus, in the 15th, 16th and early 17th centuries the Ottoman Turks and Mamluks of Egypt (as well as the Russians and Poles) used chichak helmets. In the late 17th century though the Ottomans do seem to have abandonned the chichak and adopted the kulah khud. BTW in the 15th century a variant of the chichak without the peak (brow guard) was also used in Iran and India.

By Moorish do you mean North African or Andalucian? The reason I ask is because I know nothing about North African armour, but I do know that Andalucian Arabs used European style helmets like the sallet and celata (barbute). There is a very fine example of a Moorish sallet on theMetropolitan Musem website:
http://www.metmuseum.org/Works_of_Ar...&item=1983.413

B.I · 11th April 2006, 09:00 PM

hi aqtai,
i wouldnt take the archaeologists comment too seriously until an image is shown. i feel there is a strong possibility of generic terms being used (as in 'saracenic' used throughout 19th/20thC for anything oriental).
both moor and turkish are loose forms of 'saracenic' and so are a basic descriptive term for anything non-european. i may be doing him an injustice, and he may well be right. but, as you know a 11th/12thC 'islamic' helmet from either north africa, turkic lands or andalucia would look nothing like the post's original kulah khud.
i do hope the said helmet is shown for us to discuss.
btw, that helmet from the met (nasrid) caused much controversy when it was purchased. not sure the jury is quite out on it as yet.

11th April 2006, 12:51 AM	#1
domayeux Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: France/Egypt Posts: 1	Hi just to put in comparison I believe that one really Kadjar, not only because is mine I'm using it as "avatar", but it's not only a picture Attached Images

11th April 2006, 02:29 AM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Domayeux Are you not also the member "Dom" ? You have a private message . I strongly suggest you read it .

11th April 2006, 08:59 AM	#3
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi Valjhun, aqtai has shown a good overall selection of helmets, but i think you need to choose the culture that is most appealing to you. finding any helmet (either persian or indian) of the 18thC or before is extremely hard, and very expensive. 19thC helmets were made on mass as they were mainly decorative pieces for an export market (the military raj bringing home 'trophies'). it is possible of course to find earlier examples, but definately not easy. there is a distinct difference between persian and indian and each suits a different taste.

11th April 2006, 11:46 AM	#4
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 937	Received by e-mail from forum lurker Steve: I am not a member, but came to the "Kulah Khud" Helmet, and use to have one almost like it. An archeologist from Oklahoma, thought this type of Helmet was from the Moors, or Turkish, dating back to 1100 or 1200 AD. ?? My Helmet was really close to this one. Except my Helmet was all engraved on top, with silver enlay. It was also rusted from being buried. And the chain mail was still in tact. I hope this has been a little help. Thanks

11th April 2006, 03:49 PM	#5
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi, it would be great if steve could post his helmet on here to discuss (and stop lurking and join in ) i am afraid i have met my fair share of museum curators, heads of departments, cataloguers and archeologists - all of whom are extremely passionate about what they do and willing to help in any way they can whether the particular piece falls into their expertise or not. however, this can sometimes be very misleading. i still stick to my initial opinion, but would love to see steves helmet and open up the discussion (even if via lee with steve remaining in the shadows )

11th April 2006, 09:00 PM	#7
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi aqtai, i wouldnt take the archaeologists comment too seriously until an image is shown. i feel there is a strong possibility of generic terms being used (as in 'saracenic' used throughout 19th/20thC for anything oriental). both moor and turkish are loose forms of 'saracenic' and so are a basic descriptive term for anything non-european. i may be doing him an injustice, and he may well be right. but, as you know a 11th/12thC 'islamic' helmet from either north africa, turkic lands or andalucia would look nothing like the post's original kulah khud. i do hope the said helmet is shown for us to discuss. btw, that helmet from the met (nasrid) caused much controversy when it was purchased. not sure the jury is quite out on it as yet.