Help to identifying a type of (British) sword

Hotspur · 15th November 2018, 05:59 PM

It is a decorative reproduction. No proof plug and note that the triangles do not actually interlock, as a proper display of it would. These are two things that jump out but the deep blade etch another primary fault.
Likely Chinese made and fairly modern.

Cheers
GC

TVV · 15th November 2018, 06:05 PM

Am I the only one who sees an Afghan crest on this blade?

Teodor

Hotspur · 15th November 2018, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Am I the only one who sees an Afghan crest on this blade?

Teodor

backwards

How about this "British" blade

Jim McDougall · 15th November 2018, 06:41 PM

BONK!!!!
Teodor….brilliant!!!! How did we miss that ?

That is indeed the Afghan state crest , the Mosque at Mazir I Sharif!

Afghanistan it is.

Belgian1 · 15th November 2018, 06:52 PM

Waaaaw !!!!! Congratulations Teodor ;-)

Hi Theodor, congratulations for your discovery !!!!! :-) I think you changed a big question mark into a beautiful discovery :-)

Great !!!!!
Respect from Belgium ;-)

Belgian1 · 15th November 2018, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

BONK!!!!
Teodor….brilliant!!!! How did we miss that ?

That is indeed the Afghan state crest , the Mosque at Mazir I Sharif!

Afghanistan it is.

It's great your sharing of knowledge and your research. This is all "the essence" of an interesting Forum that is powered by interesting members. I congratulate you all for your constructive contributions.
Thanks and bravo once again !!!

Jim McDougall · 16th November 2018, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belgian1

It's great your sharing of knowledge and your research. This is all "the essence" of an interesting Forum that is powered by interesting members. I congratulate you all for your constructive contributions.
Thanks and bravo once again !!!

Thank you very much Belgian!

Ian · 16th November 2018, 12:21 PM

The Afghan attribution seems to be correct. This afternoon I was sent pictures of a similar sword by one of the many sword enthusiasts who come to this site anonymously. The sword has the mark of the Afghan armory as well, and shows similar deep chiseling along the blade. The pictures were sent to me with a note that this is a late 19th C. Afghan officer's sword.

Perhaps this thread might be better served in the Ethno Forum.

Ian.

fernando · 16th November 2018, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

... Perhaps this thread might be better served in the Ethno Forum ...

And why not ?

Hotspur · 15th November 2018, 08:20 PM

Foot in mouth?

Enjoy

GC

The Emirate of Afghanistan 1823-1926
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...926%29.svg.png

most similar but still missing the middle flag
1901-1919 with cannon and swords
I still don't see it as true
The thing is that none higher would be a very Muslim thing and certainly, a flag would not be. Whatever.

TVV · 15th November 2018, 09:50 PM

GC,

I agree with you that this is not a European sword blade, and most definitely not a Wilkinson blade. The Afghans were very adept at making copies, there are articles on this forum explaining how they were able to reverse engineer Martinis and even Mauser C96s. The one thing they did not always get quite right were the European markings, as the craftsmen copying those simply did not understand them.

What I see here is an interesting Afghan military sword, made most likely in the early 20th century. To me this is an example of local craftsmanship and outside (in this particular instance British) influence in a time, when the Afghan army was transitioning and modernizing. A search in the ethnographic section will produce examples of the Mosque at Mazar-i-Sharif marking applied to traditional Afghan arms, if I remember correctly to denote that they belonged to the Khan's arsenal in Kabul.

Teodor

Hotspur · 15th November 2018, 10:15 PM

Quote:

I agree with you that this is not a European sword blade

...................and sorry, I would not agree it is a native Afghani made sword. That opinion based on the elements I have outlined.

Cheers
GC

TVV · 15th November 2018, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotspur

...................and sorry, I would not agree it is a native Afghani made sword. That opinion based on the elements I have outlined.

Cheers
GC

Not agreeing is perfectly fine, no need to apologize. One needs to consider all possible scenarios.

I have seen Afghan shashkas with Toledo made blades (early 20th century Toledo manufacture) and so it is entirely possible that this is a European made blade. One would expect to see some manufacturer's marks on a European blade though.

Is it also possible that someone in China decided to make a copy of a British sword, but for whatever reason copied from an old Afghan military sword, which would be quite funny, and also unlikely, at least in my opinion.

Teodor

Jim McDougall · 16th November 2018, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

GC,

I agree with you that this is not a European sword blade, and most definitely not a Wilkinson blade. The Afghans were very adept at making copies, there are articles on this forum explaining how they were able to reverse engineer Martinis and even Mauser C96s. The one thing they did not always get quite right were the European markings, as the craftsmen copying those simply did not understand them.

What I see here is an interesting Afghan military sword, made most likely in the early 20th century. To me this is an example of local craftsmanship and outside (in this particular instance British) influence in a time, when the Afghan army was transitioning and modernizing. A search in the ethnographic section will produce examples of the Mosque at Mazar-i-Sharif marking applied to traditional Afghan arms, if I remember correctly to denote that they belonged to the Khan's arsenal in Kabul.

Teodor

Exactly!! Perfectly explained and 100% agree. The skills of the Afghans in arms production is astonishing.........and as noted, many arms are well made copies but the markings often are readily discernible as non authentic.

Belgian1 · 15th November 2018, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotspur

It is a decorative reproduction. No proof plug and note that the triangles do not actually interlock, as a proper display of it would. These are two things that jump out but the deep blade etch another primary fault.
Likely Chinese made and fairly modern.

Cheers
GC

Good evening, Thank you for your intervention that has sufficiently attracted my attention for me to research the position of the star of "proof test".
Here is what I could find and I can assure you that these are authentic British swords from 1865 - 1905.
Photos 1: 1865-1875 Rifle Man Officer
Photo 2: Infantry Officer before 1892
Photo 3: Georges V WWI Period King
Photo 4: Royal Army Medical Officer 1905
Photo 5: Advertisement for British Thurkle swords in 1901

You see that the Chinese are not the only ones to place the "proof test" star against the edges of the blade or not centered. May be they were inspired by the excellent British manufacturers in the nineteenth century ;-)

Kind regards from Belgium

(Pictures are kept from the excellent web site: Easton Antique Arms and I thank him for his nice work)

15th November 2018, 06:41 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,298	BONK!!!! Teodor….brilliant!!!! How did we miss that ? That is indeed the Afghan state crest , the Mosque at Mazir I Sharif! Afghanistan it is. Attached Images

15th November 2018, 06:52 PM	#5
Belgian1 Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Belgium Posts: 52	Help to identifying a mysterious "1831 type sword" Waaaaw !!!!! Congratulations Teodor ;-) Hi Theodor, congratulations for your discovery !!!!! :-) I think you changed a big question mark into a beautiful discovery :-) Great !!!!! Respect from Belgium ;-)

16th November 2018, 12:21 PM	#8
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,399	The Afghan attribution seems to be correct. This afternoon I was sent pictures of a similar sword by one of the many sword enthusiasts who come to this site anonymously. The sword has the mark of the Afghan armory as well, and shows similar deep chiseling along the blade. The pictures were sent to me with a note that this is a late 19th C. Afghan officer's sword. Perhaps this thread might be better served in the Ethno Forum. Ian. Attached Images

15th November 2018, 08:20 PM	#10
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 514	Foot in mouth? Enjoy GC The Emirate of Afghanistan 1823-1926 https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...926%29.svg.png most similar but still missing the middle flag 1901-1919 with cannon and swords I still don't see it as true The thing is that none higher would be a very Muslim thing and certainly, a flag would not be. Whatever. Attached Images Last edited by Hotspur; 15th November 2018 at 08:52 PM.

15th November 2018, 05:59 PM	#1
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 514	It is a decorative reproduction. No proof plug and note that the triangles do not actually interlock, as a proper display of it would. These are two things that jump out but the deep blade etch another primary fault. Likely Chinese made and fairly modern. Cheers GC

15th November 2018, 06:05 PM	#2
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	Am I the only one who sees an Afghan crest on this blade? Teodor

15th November 2018, 09:50 PM	#11
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	GC, I agree with you that this is not a European sword blade, and most definitely not a Wilkinson blade. The Afghans were very adept at making copies, there are articles on this forum explaining how they were able to reverse engineer Martinis and even Mauser C96s. The one thing they did not always get quite right were the European markings, as the craftsmen copying those simply did not understand them. What I see here is an interesting Afghan military sword, made most likely in the early 20th century. To me this is an example of local craftsmanship and outside (in this particular instance British) influence in a time, when the Afghan army was transitioning and modernizing. A search in the ethnographic section will produce examples of the Mosque at Mazar-i-Sharif marking applied to traditional Afghan arms, if I remember correctly to denote that they belonged to the Khan's arsenal in Kabul. Teodor