Another Medieval Mystery Sword?

Reventlov · 8th November 2018, 03:30 PM

Hi Lee,
Very interesting, thanks for sharing this! I think Tomáš addresses the nuances of the various typologies very well. It has been clear to me for a while that the definition of Petersen's type L has been interpreted over-broadly to include quite a disparate variety of swords, and classification into more specific sub-types is definitely appropriate. I can only wish I had written this analysis myself... if my earlier observations were of any inspiration at all, that would still be very gratifying!

Jim McDougall · 8th November 2018, 08:30 PM

Reventlov,
.As I noted, I was very grateful for Lee sharing his sword here, and the analysis by Tomas was fascinating and thorough, however the points you made last year were extremely pertinent and offered excellent insight.

As I mentioned, this field is FAR outside my 'pay grade' but the observations you offered as well as the analysis by Tomas gave me great benchmarks with which I could better approach understanding these aspects of the sword.

I very much enjoy learning as much as I can on weapons, and this was a great exercise for me. I hope others might see this opportunity as well, as these kinds of ancient swords are seldom seen in the collecting community.

Again, I thank you both.

Lee · 10th November 2018, 03:06 AM

Reventlov, I must agree with your opinion that related but different types with opposing curved guards have perhaps unfortunately come to be included into Petersen's type L. Mr. Peirce and I were not the first offenders, but we did perpetuate the practice.

Looking at the illustrations in Petersen, it is obvious that his type L corresponds to what Wheeler would refer to as type V (5) or the Wallingford [sic, see Jim's note above] type. Petersen's distinctive type 7 (fig 77) seems the closest that his Norwegian material comes to Wheeler's type VI (6) that Wheeler surmised was of 'Danish' origin, but well represented in England.

This present group with similar, but clearly some distinctively different features, such as cast copper alloy five lobed pommels secured by an exposed peened tang at the top of the pommel, appears at this point to be yet another localized English variation. Perhaps we may call it 'Wheeler type VIa' until the academics properly define and definitively name it?

British sword blades of the Viking Age were probably frequently of local manufacture, based on recognizable differences from those made elsewhere in Europe (see Lang & Ager, 1989). Obviously the blade of this sword is in very poor condition, but even so it has a lenticular cross section (actually not unknown in the literature, even if initially confusing to me) without evidence of a fuller and, on the surface, it is also without evidence of pattern-welding or iron inlays. I wonder if this suggests a later date within or just after the Viking Age (as indicated by the dating given for many of the pommels)? Hopefully more examples of this type with blades will surface in due course. Tomáš' article on Petersen's type M swords notes that pattern-welded and inlaid blades were uncommonly mounted with that simple hilt type, and that this may have been a less expensive fully functional but still 'budget' style - perhaps that will prove to be the case with these.

Jim, thank you for your comments above. I'll share some thoughts on the 'evolution' of lobed pommels - once I find the supporting photographs.

10th November 2018, 03:06 AM	#3
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 937	Wheeler VIa (Reventlov) type Reventlov, I must agree with your opinion that related but different types with opposing curved guards have perhaps unfortunately come to be included into Petersen's type L. Mr. Peirce and I were not the first offenders, but we did perpetuate the practice. Looking at the illustrations in Petersen, it is obvious that his type L corresponds to what Wheeler would refer to as type V (5) or the Wallingford [sic, see Jim's note above] type. Petersen's distinctive type 7 (fig 77) seems the closest that his Norwegian material comes to Wheeler's type VI (6) that Wheeler surmised was of 'Danish' origin, but well represented in England. This present group with similar, but clearly some distinctively different features, such as cast copper alloy five lobed pommels secured by an exposed peened tang at the top of the pommel, appears at this point to be yet another localized English variation. Perhaps we may call it 'Wheeler type VIa' until the academics properly define and definitively name it? British sword blades of the Viking Age were probably frequently of local manufacture, based on recognizable differences from those made elsewhere in Europe (see Lang & Ager, 1989). Obviously the blade of this sword is in very poor condition, but even so it has a lenticular cross section (actually not unknown in the literature, even if initially confusing to me) without evidence of a fuller and, on the surface, it is also without evidence of pattern-welding or iron inlays. I wonder if this suggests a later date within or just after the Viking Age (as indicated by the dating given for many of the pommels)? Hopefully more examples of this type with blades will surface in due course. Tomáš' article on Petersen's type M swords notes that pattern-welded and inlaid blades were uncommonly mounted with that simple hilt type, and that this may have been a less expensive fully functional but still 'budget' style - perhaps that will prove to be the case with these. Jim, thank you for your comments above. I'll share some thoughts on the 'evolution' of lobed pommels - once I find the supporting photographs.

8th November 2018, 03:30 PM	#1
Reventlov Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 138	Hi Lee, Very interesting, thanks for sharing this! I think Tomáš addresses the nuances of the various typologies very well. It has been clear to me for a while that the definition of Petersen's type L has been interpreted over-broadly to include quite a disparate variety of swords, and classification into more specific sub-types is definitely appropriate. I can only wish I had written this analysis myself... if my earlier observations were of any inspiration at all, that would still be very gratifying!

8th November 2018, 08:30 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Reventlov, .As I noted, I was very grateful for Lee sharing his sword here, and the analysis by Tomas was fascinating and thorough, however the points you made last year were extremely pertinent and offered excellent insight. As I mentioned, this field is FAR outside my 'pay grade' but the observations you offered as well as the analysis by Tomas gave me great benchmarks with which I could better approach understanding these aspects of the sword. I very much enjoy learning as much as I can on weapons, and this was a great exercise for me. I hope others might see this opportunity as well, as these kinds of ancient swords are seldom seen in the collecting community. Again, I thank you both.