Matchlock gun of Afghanistan?

rickystl · 2nd September 2018, 02:52 PM

Hello All

Well, this Thread has become an interesting conversation.

Mahratt: Thank you so much for the photo of the Sindi warriors with their percussion Jazails. First time I've seen this photo. Thank you !! As a curious side note: Every Sindh origin gun I've seen is either matchlock or percussion variation. While somewhere in Tirri's or Elgood's books there is one example of a Sindh gun in flintlock, they seem quite rare. You just never see them. It seems Sindh skipped the flintlock period for the most part, similar to Japan.

Butt Stock Design: It seems the different regions under the Ottoman Empire each had their own "general" preference in gun design. But as many, if not most of these guns were made on an individual (non-production) basis, I'm sure individual customer tastes were included. This, along with the common use and reuse of gun parts and the mix of cultures can sometimes make it difficult to pinpoint the original origin of some of these Ethno guns.

Corrodo's Gun: The barrel design replicates the general design of barrels made for Toradors in Northern and Central India. The swell at the breech and muzzle ends, the placement of the front and rear sights, the serpentine/trigger assembly, and the pan design are all clues of at least the barrel's origins. And the barrel may easily be from an earlier gun and re-used. The barrel is probably damascus but you can't tell from the extra heavy patina. Note the priming pan lacks a cover. But many were made this way.
Butt Stock: I note the butt stock curves downward, and then straight. But the circumference is still squareish like the Toradors. The Sindi and Afghan stocks curve downward and back up for fit under the armpit for carry.

So all this evidence tells me this gun was made in India - somewhere. LOL
The gun is a bit less than munitions grade. I think this gun was made for an individual for the least possible cost of material and labor, with what ever reusable parts the gunsmith had on hand at the time, including the use of the rattan bands. This would not at all be uncommon. Just my best guess on the gun in question.

Rick

Pukka Bundook · 2nd September 2018, 03:06 PM

Rick,

The stock carving of the gun in the O.P. also say India, rather than Afghanistan. (On underside ahead of the breech.)
Eggerton has one very similar, to both this one and the one Mahratt shows, and has them down as found in Indore.
(See my post above about origins! LOL!!)

Ariel,
Rattan could have been used originally, but we see many matchlocks with marks where bindings or cappucines Used to be, and I think as all kinds of bindings work, that it comes down to what was available, or was fashionable or was attractive to the present owner. I may be missing something though!

Best,
Richard.

rickystl · 2nd September 2018, 03:38 PM

Hi Richard

As soon as I submitted my post, I saw your post. LOL Same brain I guess. LOL

I agree with all your comments. And as to origin, OK Indore. That makes me double glad you joined this Thread.

As you mention, we've seen these guns barrels bound to the stocks with a wide variety of different material. Likely for the reasons you mention.

I notice the bore in the barrel appears to have seen heavy usage. Maybe more so than the rest of the gun's condition. Which was another reason why I thought the barrel was re-stocked at some latter point.

Another curiosity to me: The one illistration posted above shows the use of matchlocks with attached bi-pods. The only guns I've seen with this feature are of Afghan origin. Wheather matchlock or flintlock. There may be a Torador with one, but I've never seen one.

Rick

rickystl · 2nd September 2018, 03:40 PM

The stock carving of the gun in the O.P. also say India, rather than Afghanistan.

Hi Richard

Yes, that was one point I was trying to make. Much agreed.

Rick

ariel · 2nd September 2018, 03:55 PM

Rick,

Thanks for your input.
As to bi-pods: they could have been attached sometime during the working life of the imported Indian ( Indore?) gun, couldn’t they?

rickystl · 2nd September 2018, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Rick,

Thanks for your input.
As to bi-pods: they could have been attached sometime during the working life of the imported Indian ( Indore?) gun, couldn’t they?

Hi Ariel

I'm sure that's possible, even likely. There may even be examples, I just haven't seen any. The Afghans seemed to have a preference for shooting their long guns from bipods or resting on rocks on cliffs, or other means of support.
Which would work well since their long guns tended to have front-heavy barrels.

Rick

mahratt · 3rd September 2018, 11:26 AM

Hello All

Thank you for the interesting discussion.

Dima

P.S. Rick, by the way, I'm sure that you know that the Afghans did not always use bipods when firing from traditional guns:

rickystl · 3rd September 2018, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Rick,

Thanks for your input.
As to bi-pods: they could have been attached sometime during the working life of the imported Indian ( Indore?) gun, couldn’t they?

Hi Ariel

I'm sure these bi-pods were made as a seperate accessory. So they could have been added earlier or later in the gun's life.
A few years ago a fellow Forum member sent me a PM with a heads-up about an upcoming auction. There was a bi-pod (only) going up for bid. It looked Afghan made and was in very good original condition. It was unique in that it had a hand forged "U" shape clamp that would allow the shooter to attach or detach the bipod within seconds. This would be much preferred versus drilling a hole in the forestock to attach the bi-pod. But I didn't see the PM till it was too late to register. DARN. Wonder who the lucky winner was ? LOL

Rick

fernando · 3rd September 2018, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

... Another curiosity to me: The one illistration posted above shows the use of matchlocks with attached bi-pods. The only guns I've seen with this feature are of Afghan origin. Wheather matchlock or flintlock. There may be a Torador with one, but I've never seen one...

Just a silly note, Rick ...
When you say that the only guns you have seen with bipod features are of Afghan origin, you are only establishing a comparison between such country and India and not from elsewhere, like China and Tibet, where matchlocks with bipods may be seen ...

ariel · 3rd September 2018, 03:04 PM

Caucasus, too.
Somehow, it seems that bipods were predominantly used in a mountainous terrain.

Or is it a correlation implying causation?:-)

Pukka Bundook · 3rd September 2018, 03:29 PM

Rick,

(When you dropping in to see us again???)
Re bi-pods;
If we look at the miniature paintings from Moghul India, we see plenty of representations of bi-pods. I think it would be the first thing to get chucked though, especially if they were being brought 'home' by returning folk stationed in India, such as soldiers, diplomats/officers. (Too unwieldy to bother with!)
As we see quite a few with a scar on the forestock where we presume a front swivel may have attached, maybe this was the mounting point for a bi-pod?

See illustrations below;
Very interesting story behind two of these pics. Have more, but can't find the ones I want! Will attach them later.

Very best old sport.
Richard.

Pukka Bundook · 3rd September 2018, 04:03 PM

One more photos of bi-pod, being used by Shah Jahan

A "bipod " that can move by itself, LOL!

I had a photo of Shah Jahan using a proper bi-pod, a well known drawing, but I can't find it.

Richard.

PS,
I think the"Bi-pods " name is "Deafy".

rickystl · 3rd September 2018, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

One more photos of bi-pod, being used by Shah Jahan

A "bipod " that can move by itself, LOL!

I had a photo of Shah Jahan using a proper bi-pod, a well known drawing, but I can't find it.

Richard.

PS,
I think the"Bi-pods " name is "Deafy".

Hi Richard

LOL!!! Yes, the permanantly portable bi-pod. Even has two moveable legs. LOL Thanks for the illistrations. Very neat.

(I "think" I will be back come early Spring next year)

Rick

rickystl · 3rd September 2018, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Just a silly note, Rick ...
When you say that the only guns you have seen with bipod features are of Afghan origin, you are only establishing a comparison between such country and India and not from elsewhere, like China and Tibet, where matchlocks with bipods may be seen ...

Hi Fernando

Yes, I should have been more clear. I was refering to Afghan versus Indian.
Yes, the use of bi-pods in China, Southest Asia, etc. with their matchlocks almost seem the norm.
As the illistrations show, the bi-pods were also used with the Toradors. I've just never been able to personally view/examine one. But hope to one day.
Over the years there seems to be a number of the Jazails that turn up with these bi-pods attached. Or, as Richard mentions, you see the extra hole in the forestock that would have allowed it's attachment.

Rick

3rd September 2018, 11:26 AM	#7
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Hello All Thank you for the interesting discussion. Dima P.S. Rick, by the way, I'm sure that you know that the Afghans did not always use bipods when firing from traditional guns: Attached Images

3rd September 2018, 03:29 PM	#11
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Rick, (When you dropping in to see us again???) Re bi-pods; If we look at the miniature paintings from Moghul India, we see plenty of representations of bi-pods. I think it would be the first thing to get chucked though, especially if they were being brought 'home' by returning folk stationed in India, such as soldiers, diplomats/officers. (Too unwieldy to bother with!) As we see quite a few with a scar on the forestock where we presume a front swivel may have attached, maybe this was the mounting point for a bi-pod? See illustrations below; Very interesting story behind two of these pics. Have more, but can't find the ones I want! Will attach them later. Very best old sport. Richard. Attached Images

3rd September 2018, 04:03 PM	#12
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	One more photos of bi-pod, being used by Shah Jahan A "bipod " that can move by itself, LOL! I had a photo of Shah Jahan using a proper bi-pod, a well known drawing, but I can't find it. Richard. PS, I think the"Bi-pods " name is "Deafy". Attached Images

2nd September 2018, 02:52 PM	#1
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,632	Hello All Well, this Thread has become an interesting conversation. Mahratt: Thank you so much for the photo of the Sindi warriors with their percussion Jazails. First time I've seen this photo. Thank you !! As a curious side note: Every Sindh origin gun I've seen is either matchlock or percussion variation. While somewhere in Tirri's or Elgood's books there is one example of a Sindh gun in flintlock, they seem quite rare. You just never see them. It seems Sindh skipped the flintlock period for the most part, similar to Japan. Butt Stock Design: It seems the different regions under the Ottoman Empire each had their own "general" preference in gun design. But as many, if not most of these guns were made on an individual (non-production) basis, I'm sure individual customer tastes were included. This, along with the common use and reuse of gun parts and the mix of cultures can sometimes make it difficult to pinpoint the original origin of some of these Ethno guns. Corrodo's Gun: The barrel design replicates the general design of barrels made for Toradors in Northern and Central India. The swell at the breech and muzzle ends, the placement of the front and rear sights, the serpentine/trigger assembly, and the pan design are all clues of at least the barrel's origins. And the barrel may easily be from an earlier gun and re-used. The barrel is probably damascus but you can't tell from the extra heavy patina. Note the priming pan lacks a cover. But many were made this way. Butt Stock: I note the butt stock curves downward, and then straight. But the circumference is still squareish like the Toradors. The Sindi and Afghan stocks curve downward and back up for fit under the armpit for carry. So all this evidence tells me this gun was made in India - somewhere. LOL The gun is a bit less than munitions grade. I think this gun was made for an individual for the least possible cost of material and labor, with what ever reusable parts the gunsmith had on hand at the time, including the use of the rattan bands. This would not at all be uncommon. Just my best guess on the gun in question. Rick

2nd September 2018, 03:06 PM	#2
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Rick, The stock carving of the gun in the O.P. also say India, rather than Afghanistan. (On underside ahead of the breech.) Eggerton has one very similar, to both this one and the one Mahratt shows, and has them down as found in Indore. (See my post above about origins! LOL!!) Ariel, Rattan could have been used originally, but we see many matchlocks with marks where bindings or cappucines Used to be, and I think as all kinds of bindings work, that it comes down to what was available, or was fashionable or was attractive to the present owner. I may be missing something though! Best, Richard.

2nd September 2018, 03:38 PM	#3
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,632	Hi Richard As soon as I submitted my post, I saw your post. LOL Same brain I guess. LOL I agree with all your comments. And as to origin, OK Indore. That makes me double glad you joined this Thread. As you mention, we've seen these guns barrels bound to the stocks with a wide variety of different material. Likely for the reasons you mention. I notice the bore in the barrel appears to have seen heavy usage. Maybe more so than the rest of the gun's condition. Which was another reason why I thought the barrel was re-stocked at some latter point. Another curiosity to me: The one illistration posted above shows the use of matchlocks with attached bi-pods. The only guns I've seen with this feature are of Afghan origin. Wheather matchlock or flintlock. There may be a Torador with one, but I've never seen one. Rick

2nd September 2018, 03:40 PM	#4
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,632	The stock carving of the gun in the O.P. also say India, rather than Afghanistan. Hi Richard Yes, that was one point I was trying to make. Much agreed. Rick

2nd September 2018, 03:55 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Rick, Thanks for your input. As to bi-pods: they could have been attached sometime during the working life of the imported Indian ( Indore?) gun, couldn’t they?

3rd September 2018, 03:04 PM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Caucasus, too. Somehow, it seems that bipods were predominantly used in a mountainous terrain. Or is it a correlation implying causation?:-)