Copper And Brass Philippine Dagger

Robert · 22nd August 2018, 07:46 AM

Hello Ian, With the overall styling and the tang extending all the way through the hilt I would believe this to be an Ilocano piece. As for the copper and brass alternating the way they do I am not really sure of its significance, but when counted it adds up to seven a lucky number so I believe that this could also be talismanic in nature. In the photos showing only the hilt the ferrule next to the guard is made of copper, but for some reason (probably lighting) it looks more like brass. The true color can be seen in the first two photos.The one thing I forgot to mention before are the bird motifs carved above each of the panels. These of course represent the upper world and symbolize the sun gods alter ego.

Best,
Robert

Sajen · 22nd August 2018, 04:01 PM

Hello Robert,
What a beautiful talismanic dagger, like you said byself loaded with symbolism!

It's a great addition to your copper and brass bladed Philippine dagger/knife collection!

Best regards,
Detlef

Robert · 22nd August 2018, 05:29 PM

Hello Detlef, And thank you for your kind words and interest in this unusual piece. As these copper bladed daggers seem to be few and far between and even less common than their brass/bronze counterparts. I was extremely happy to have been able to acquire this piece for my collection. I have added a photo to my original posting that was graciously given me by Lorenz (AKA Migueldiaz) in reference to another piece in my collection that helps explain some of the symbolism used on this piece. Finding any information on these copper bladed knives and daggers has proven to be difficult to say the least.

Best,
Robert

Sajen · 23rd August 2018, 02:59 PM

Robert and I am have dicussed his new addition to his great collection by mail before and coming to the so called "catmon" flower symbol found on many Philippine blades, sometimes at the handle, sometimes at the scabbard.
We found that the real natural catmon flower has five petals, see first picture. The most catmon flowers I've found on my weapons show only flowers with four petals, only one has indeed five petals.
Shown are at first a flower on the handle of a Bicol blade, next is one on the scabbard from my tres kantos dagger, two one on the leather throat of one of my binangons from the Visayas and at last a four petal flower on one of my Moluccas shields. The last picture shows a flower with five petals on the handle of my ram head sword from Luzon.
Any opinions about this? Are the four petal flowers are indeed catmon flowers? Or this are other flowers?

Regards,
Detlef

Ian · 24th August 2018, 01:11 AM

Sajen,

I think we may be looking at depictions of more than one type of flower. As shown on the leather throat of your Visayan sword, one of these representations has a central round area and what appear to be the leaves that surrounded the pod from which the petals emerged, as shown in the picture of a catmon flower that you present. However, the carving adjacent to it looks different--there is no central round area and the pod leaves are missing. Looks like two different plants to me. In other depictions, some show a circular center and other do not. It is also curious that carvers would get the number of petals wrong consistently.

The five-petal example you show really does look like a catmon flower, so why the mistakes on other examples? Strange.

Ian.

Ian · 24th August 2018, 01:33 AM

In thinking about four-petal flowers of significance in Filipino culture, there is the Santan flower that has some importance--see http://www.psst.ph/top-7-flower-symb...s-philippines/.

Quote:

Santan or Ixora coccinea The flowering plants are normally planted near the entrance of one’s house. People believe that the blooming santan can ward off evil spirits and is a good luck plant when grown in large numbers. Flowers are also offered to young maidens which symbolizes the burning passion for their career and love. Recently , there is growing trend among bonsai hobbyists to use them as material for bonsai. This plant is easily grown through cuttings.

Commonly grown as a low hedge throughout the Philippines. Picture attached.

Ian.

Battara · 24th August 2018, 03:00 AM

On this talismanic dagger I think it is great!

I still wonder what they were for and how, though there were many para-religious/military groups around the turn of the century who fought against the Spanish.

A note: on the barong with ivory and damaging at the top of Lorenz's chart/picture, I offer another symbolic interpretation. This barong is mine and these triangles could also be bamboo shoots. Yes, bamboo shoots. (see picture) In neighboring Indonesia, these are stylistically used on textiles, weapons, and other metal wear. Indonesians, genetic/cultural/linguistic cousins to those in the Philippines, are closer still to the Sulu and other Moro peoples. They state that this is the origin of the motif. Now there may be a double entendre in use here in that the Philippine mentality of the triangle representing earth/sea/sky may also be involved.

Robert · 24th August 2018, 03:17 AM

Ian,
Thank you very much for your help in possibly identifying the proper name of the flower with four pointed petals seen on this dagger. Then by pointing out that "People believe that the blooming santan can ward off evil spirits and is a good luck plant" could also easily explain why these flowers are seen carved into the scabbards and hilts of many of the Philippine edged weapons that we see. Now if we could identify another flower with four more rounded petals that is also considered to be good luck or protection from evil it would explain the other flower found on the above dagger.

Best,
Robert

Sajen · 24th August 2018, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

In thinking about four-petal flowers of significance in Filipino culture, there is the Santan flower that has some importance--see http://www.psst.ph/top-7-flower-symb...s-philippines/.

Commonly grown as a low hedge throughout the Philippines. Picture attached.

Hi Ian,

most interesting and informative!

This would explain also why the petals are carved pointed. Thank you very much for this lesson!

Regards,
Detlef

Sajen · 24th August 2018, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

I think we may be looking at depictions of more than one type of flower. As shown on the leather throat of your Visayan sword, one of these representations has a central round area and what appear to be the leaves that surrounded the pod from which the petals emerged, as shown in the picture of a catmon flower that you present. However, the carving adjacent to it looks different--there is no central round area and the pod leaves are missing. Looks like two different plants to me. In other depictions, some show a circular center and other do not. It is also curious that carvers would get the number of petals wrong consistently.

The five-petal example you show really does look like a catmon flower, so why the mistakes on other examples? Strange.

Exactly what I want to know and thought byself and the reason why I asked about this. Again, thank you very much!

Detlef

Ian · 25th August 2018, 01:44 AM

Robert, what a fascinating story! The older man must have been familiar with many of the customs and traditions of the "old ways." Clearly these brass bladed weapons have a powerful history.

There is a long tradition in many cultures of the power of simply pointing a weapon (or other item, such as a bone) at someone who will then die. In Australian aboriginal culture it is a bone. This topic might be a good idea for a new thread if someone who is more knowledgeable about it than I am would care to start one.

Ian.

22nd August 2018, 07:46 AM	#1
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Ian, With the overall styling and the tang extending all the way through the hilt I would believe this to be an Ilocano piece. As for the copper and brass alternating the way they do I am not really sure of its significance, but when counted it adds up to seven a lucky number so I believe that this could also be talismanic in nature. In the photos showing only the hilt the ferrule next to the guard is made of copper, but for some reason (probably lighting) it looks more like brass. The true color can be seen in the first two photos.The one thing I forgot to mention before are the bird motifs carved above each of the panels. These of course represent the upper world and symbolize the sun gods alter ego. Best, Robert Last edited by Robert; 22nd August 2018 at 07:58 AM.

23rd August 2018, 02:59 PM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,270	Robert and I am have dicussed his new addition to his great collection by mail before and coming to the so called "catmon" flower symbol found on many Philippine blades, sometimes at the handle, sometimes at the scabbard. We found that the real natural catmon flower has five petals, see first picture. The most catmon flowers I've found on my weapons show only flowers with four petals, only one has indeed five petals. Shown are at first a flower on the handle of a Bicol blade, next is one on the scabbard from my tres kantos dagger, two one on the leather throat of one of my binangons from the Visayas and at last a four petal flower on one of my Moluccas shields. The last picture shows a flower with five petals on the handle of my ram head sword from Luzon. Any opinions about this? Are the four petal flowers are indeed catmon flowers? Or this are other flowers? Regards, Detlef Attached Images

24th August 2018, 03:00 AM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,308	On this talismanic dagger I think it is great! I still wonder what they were for and how, though there were many para-religious/military groups around the turn of the century who fought against the Spanish. A note: on the barong with ivory and damaging at the top of Lorenz's chart/picture, I offer another symbolic interpretation. This barong is mine and these triangles could also be bamboo shoots. Yes, bamboo shoots. (see picture) In neighboring Indonesia, these are stylistically used on textiles, weapons, and other metal wear. Indonesians, genetic/cultural/linguistic cousins to those in the Philippines, are closer still to the Sulu and other Moro peoples. They state that this is the origin of the motif. Now there may be a double entendre in use here in that the Philippine mentality of the triangle representing earth/sea/sky may also be involved. Attached Images

22nd August 2018, 04:01 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,270	Hello Robert, What a beautiful talismanic dagger, like you said byself loaded with symbolism! It's a great addition to your copper and brass bladed Philippine dagger/knife collection! Best regards, Detlef

22nd August 2018, 05:29 PM	#3
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Detlef, And thank you for your kind words and interest in this unusual piece. As these copper bladed daggers seem to be few and far between and even less common than their brass/bronze counterparts. I was extremely happy to have been able to acquire this piece for my collection. I have added a photo to my original posting that was graciously given me by Lorenz (AKA Migueldiaz) in reference to another piece in my collection that helps explain some of the symbolism used on this piece. Finding any information on these copper bladed knives and daggers has proven to be difficult to say the least. Best, Robert

24th August 2018, 01:11 AM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,453	Sajen, I think we may be looking at depictions of more than one type of flower. As shown on the leather throat of your Visayan sword, one of these representations has a central round area and what appear to be the leaves that surrounded the pod from which the petals emerged, as shown in the picture of a catmon flower that you present. However, the carving adjacent to it looks different--there is no central round area and the pod leaves are missing. Looks like two different plants to me. In other depictions, some show a circular center and other do not. It is also curious that carvers would get the number of petals wrong consistently. The five-petal example you show really does look like a catmon flower, so why the mistakes on other examples? Strange. Ian.

24th August 2018, 03:17 AM	#8
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Ian, Thank you very much for your help in possibly identifying the proper name of the flower with four pointed petals seen on this dagger. Then by pointing out that "People believe that the blooming santan can ward off evil spirits and is a good luck plant" could also easily explain why these flowers are seen carved into the scabbards and hilts of many of the Philippine edged weapons that we see. Now if we could identify another flower with four more rounded petals that is also considered to be good luck or protection from evil it would explain the other flower found on the above dagger. Best, Robert

25th August 2018, 01:44 AM	#11
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,453	Robert, what a fascinating story! The older man must have been familiar with many of the customs and traditions of the "old ways." Clearly these brass bladed weapons have a powerful history. There is a long tradition in many cultures of the power of simply pointing a weapon (or other item, such as a bone) at someone who will then die. In Australian aboriginal culture it is a bone. This topic might be a good idea for a new thread if someone who is more knowledgeable about it than I am would care to start one. Ian.