Dagger!

motan · 8th August 2018, 11:34 AM

Hi Helleri,
Yes and no. The question of definitions and names has been discussed many times in this forum and has no clear answers. Do not forget that these are not natural categories like animal families, but they have been invented by collectors.
So, if you mean Jambiya in the sense of Middle Eastern curved dagger - yes.
Locals in Syria call it Khanjar, the generic name for dagger in Arabic.
The term Jambiya is not used outside the Arabian Peninsula and even there, the closest relative of the Yemeni Jambiya is the Omani dagger called Khanjar.
That is my view, and I don't care much about definitions as long as we all understand each other.

Helleri · 8th August 2018, 07:11 PM

Understanding what we are talking about is probably the most important thing. Which is why I like specifics like this. What I'm getting is that Jambiya is not cladistic or basal to the family of daggers. But a lay-term which in field context actually refers to one thing in specific dagger. Is that correct? Also is there a clade for these self-evidently related types (If not it may be helpful for us to think of one)?

motan · 10th August 2018, 09:08 AM

Hi Helleri,
You are right. Unfortunately, I don't have any watertight alternative. Because "groups" of daggers are not actual entities, what you call a specific dagger is, to some degree, a matter of preference (see discussion on Karud in this forum).
In my view, collecting and describing old weapons is a fancy with scientific pretensions (sorry). Even if you find a name for a dagger in old books, you can not assume that the writer knew what he was talking about. Especially older writers used their imagination quite often and copied names from each other without checking. Genuine local names are an important information, but not always known or used by collectors. Therefore, they have their disadvantages too.
I guess that if you say Syrian Jambiya, most collectors will know what you mean and I have nothing against that. I personally would prefer "Middle Eastern curved daggers" as family name because I don't think that many Kurds, Syrians or Berbers will know what Jambiya is.

8th August 2018, 11:34 AM	#1
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Hi Helleri, Yes and no. The question of definitions and names has been discussed many times in this forum and has no clear answers. Do not forget that these are not natural categories like animal families, but they have been invented by collectors. So, if you mean Jambiya in the sense of Middle Eastern curved dagger - yes. Locals in Syria call it Khanjar, the generic name for dagger in Arabic. The term Jambiya is not used outside the Arabian Peninsula and even there, the closest relative of the Yemeni Jambiya is the Omani dagger called Khanjar. That is my view, and I don't care much about definitions as long as we all understand each other.

8th August 2018, 07:11 PM	#2
Helleri Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Chino, CA. Posts: 219	Understanding what we are talking about is probably the most important thing. Which is why I like specifics like this. What I'm getting is that Jambiya is not cladistic or basal to the family of daggers. But a lay-term which in field context actually refers to one thing in specific dagger. Is that correct? Also is there a clade for these self-evidently related types (If not it may be helpful for us to think of one)?

10th August 2018, 09:08 AM	#3
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Hi Helleri, You are right. Unfortunately, I don't have any watertight alternative. Because "groups" of daggers are not actual entities, what you call a specific dagger is, to some degree, a matter of preference (see discussion on Karud in this forum). In my view, collecting and describing old weapons is a fancy with scientific pretensions (sorry). Even if you find a name for a dagger in old books, you can not assume that the writer knew what he was talking about. Especially older writers used their imagination quite often and copied names from each other without checking. Genuine local names are an important information, but not always known or used by collectors. Therefore, they have their disadvantages too. I guess that if you say Syrian Jambiya, most collectors will know what you mean and I have nothing against that. I personally would prefer "Middle Eastern curved daggers" as family name because I don't think that many Kurds, Syrians or Berbers will know what Jambiya is.