2018 ethnographic weapon

A. G. Maisey · 30th July 2018, 10:53 PM

Thank you for your response Thomas.

Yes, coal smoke can be something that attracts a lot of attention, however smoke from coke is really only noticeable in the start-up phase, and smoke from charcoal is no more obtrusive than smoke from a BBQ.

Certainly a hammer on an anvil does make some noise, but in a normal residential environment it is really no more than might be expected from the usual weekend activity of home maintenance, certainly not something for anybody to get upset about. Of course, any type of heavy power hammer, even an Oliver, is out of the question in a residential setting.

Grinding can be very noisy, as can any machine process, but use of other techniques can reduce noise considerably, and in my experience are not noticeably slower for finely crafted work. For example, if you use an angle grinder to remove fire scale, the softer heart of the forging is exposed and it is easy to file, particularly so if the forging has been annealed prior to beginning the bench work.

Files, scrapers, cold chisels, and the use of rubbing sticks, rather than machine processes can reduce noise to almost nothing, and the use of these techniques automatically assumes the nature of a form of active meditation.

Try using the old way of doing things Thomas, it is far more satisfying than using electricity.

Yes, I know I have just recommended use of an angle grinder, and angle grinders use electricity, however it takes only a few minutes to remove fire scale from a forging, and the processing following removal of the scale is not something that can be heard outside the workshop. Fire scale can be removed with a file, but it is a lengthy process and wears out the file.

As to time taken to produce historically accurate items, the longest time I ever spent on a blade --- note, "BLADE" not a complete knife --- was 49 man-days, +/- 400 man-hours. Time is totally irrelevant when one is attempting to achieve perfection.

A. G. Maisey · 30th July 2018, 11:13 PM

Gentlemen, Thomas may be producing modern interpretations of antique weaponry, but it is not able to be argued that simply because this work by Thomas is both modern, and an interpretation, it disqualifies the work from consideration as an ethnological artifact.

Ethnology is way of learning about the world from the perspective of social relationships. It can be involved in both sociology and anthropology, and can examine the diversity of our own culture and society, as well as the diversity of foreign cultures and societies, both in the present, and in the past.

I do agree that in this Forum most participants hold an interest in weaponry that is either foreign to their own culture, or weaponry that is antique, or both these things, but the elements of antiquity and foreignness are not necessary to define ethnology, quite the opposite in fact.

My personal opinion is that people like Thomas should be encouraged as contributors, not sent into oblivion, as only a maker can understand the intricacies of actually making something, and the knowledge of the maker is invaluable to any person who attempts to understand the things in which he has an interest.

David · 31st July 2018, 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

My personal opinion is that people like Thomas should be encouraged as contributors, not sent into oblivion, as only a maker can understand the intricacies of actually making something, and the knowledge of the maker is invaluable to any person who attempts to understand the things in which he has an interest.

Alan, i don't believe anyone has even remotely suggested banishment to oblivion.

I've been a maker all my life. I'll have to upload some shots of the railroad spike knife and axe i forged. They don't have anywhere near the fine craft of Thomas' beautiful chopper here. But they do serve realtime ritual purpose and cultural significance.

Robert · 31st July 2018, 05:19 AM

Quote:

Gentlemen, Thomas may be producing modern interpretations of antique weaponry, but it is not able to be argued that simply because this work by Thomas is both modern, and an interpretation, it disqualifies the work from consideration as an ethnological artifact.

Ethnology is way of learning about the world from the perspective of social relationships. It can be involved in both sociology and anthropology, and can examine the diversity of our own culture and society, as well as the diversity of foreign cultures and societies, both in the present, and in the past.

I do agree that in this Forum most participants hold an interest in weaponry that is either foreign to their own culture, or weaponry that is antique, or both these things, but the elements of antiquity and foreignness are not necessary to define ethnology, quite the opposite in fact.

My personal opinion is that people like Thomas should be encouraged as contributors, not sent into oblivion, as only a maker can understand the intricacies of actually making something, and the knowledge of the maker is invaluable to any person who attempts to understand the things in which he has an interest.

Thank you for putting into words so precisely what I have been trying without success to do all day.

Best,
Robert

A. G. Maisey · 31st July 2018, 09:25 AM

Thank you for your reassurances David, and although much appreciated, I am certain they are unnecessary. Just as nobody in this thread has recommended that Thomas be banished, I also did not suggest that banishment was being considered by anybody, however if this current thread were to be moved from the Ethnographic Weapons Forum, into the Ethnographic Miscellanea Forum I do feel that such action could result in Thomas' contribution to our mutual interest being forgotten, and oblivion is the state of having been forgotten.

The fact that you, yourself, have had experience in the craft of metal working is itself evidence of the varied ethnicity of North American culture. When we involve ourselves in ethnographic studies, we are indulging in a very broad based discipline, and where weaponry is an element of that ethnographic study, it becomes extremely difficult to define a boundary.

Thomas' work is certainly not old, it is not replication of weaponry from an identifiable culture, but it is extremely difficult to argue that it does not fit into the parameters of ethnographic study.

fernando · 31st July 2018, 03:50 PM

Perhaps this is a case of perspectives, so that the strict acceptation of the Ethnography appears to refer the descriptive study of facts of civilization of the diverse peoples and ethnicities. Everything runs harmoniously on a tacit basis or consensus, until something apparently off scope runs into the club. Scope ... would be precisely the gauge that defines a frontier within which an implement fits into accepted discussion.
It is pertinent to say that Thomas piece doesn't fit in the Miscellania forum, but because its scope comprehending "ethnographic artifacts other than arms and armor" still raises one or another doubt in this case.
Would this be an European item, doubts would not arise, as the scope of such forum makes it clear that replicas or modern items are better dealt in more adequate venues.
So reputing any individual modern creation, providing that it has a blade, as an ethnographic weapon, may be taken by some as a rather subjective interpretation; one that can be validated or rejected by the respective forum moderators, of course. This not meaning that eventual opinions that this is not an ethnographic artifact are not valid, hence risking the whipping post.
And of course this is not about to encourage or discourage those who create whatever they intend; is more about something being or not in the adequate territory.
Mind you, all just impressions of an ignaro

.

A. G. Maisey · 31st July 2018, 11:39 PM

Who can disagree with your thoughtful approach to this matter, Fernando?

Not I, that is certain.

However, that said , I do have a couple comments.

This Forum is designated as a "General forum for discussion of all ethnographic edged weapons and related topics".

The ethnographic method of cultural investigation can be thought of as an empirical hands-on approach, as distinct from the purely theoretical method that under-pins both sociology and anthropology, in fact in the purest form of ethnographic examination of a culture the researcher enters the culture and becomes a part of it. I adopted this approach to the investigation of my own special field of study more than 30 years ago, after I found that the existing literature provided neither adequate, nor accurate information in respect of my needs.

In the matter under discussion we seem to considering at least three elements. Firstly we have a craftsman working in Europe, we then have the craftsman working in a form that takes inspiration from Asia, and finally we have that craftsman using current era technology in a craft that has existed in both Europe and Asia for in excess of 2000 years.

Considered objectively we can now understand that in the work of Thomas Hauschild we are seeing the interaction of one or more Asian cultures/societies on the thought processes of a European craftsman working in the current era, and providing an interpretation of Asian material culture by use of technology and techniques that are embedded in a sub-culture that is common to both Europe and Asia.

The ethnographic method of enquiry investigates cultural norms and variations in a culture, ideally, in a living culture, but the historical approach can also be adopted where this is necessary.

In my opinion, Thomas Hauschild and his work do provide a superb example of the interaction of cultural influence across time.

Ethnographic enquiry is about understanding cultures and societies in order to better understand the anthropology and sociology of those cultures and societies. It is an inclusive method, not an exclusive method.

In consideration of Thomas' we work have material that permits not only the obvious possibility of analysis of the physical object that Thomas produced, but a moment's thought will surely illuminate the multiple probabilities in the past where ideas from one society/culture penetrated an alien society/culture and sometimes gave rise to variation within that receiving society/culture. Much of this variation has concerned weaponry.

To my mind, this is ethnology at its core, and my understanding is that this Forum exists for the purpose of discussion of weaponry and related topics from an ethnographic perspective.

The lessons to be learned from Thomas' work go far beyond the object he has presented.

kronckew · 1st August 2018, 08:29 AM

I agree with A.G. Ethnographic edged arms is not just a dead art over 100 yrs. old. they are alive and well and in use and in production by small smiths all over the world, using a variety of traditional and modern techniques.

Mass produced replica knockoffs may not fit our forum, but there should be room for experimental archaeology that explains or perpetuates the technical construction and processes that produced our items of the past, for us and for the future, and this includes the current production of future antique artworks.

Knowing how things are made, assembled and used increases rather than decreases our knowledge of the past, as well as the present.

fernando · 1st August 2018, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Who can disagree with your thoughtful approach to this matter, Fernando?
Not I, that is certain.
However, that said , I do have a couple comments...

Fair enough, A.G.; and thank you for caring to respond to my simplistic approach to the subject. Still my argumentative abilities are manifestly inferior to those of the author of such excellent piece of rhetoric.
Yet is time i retire from this conversation, as having already expressed my point of view ... one that prevails, by the way.

Yours humbly !

31st July 2018, 03:50 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Defending the dame ! Perhaps this is a case of perspectives, so that the strict acceptation of the Ethnography appears to refer the descriptive study of facts of civilization of the diverse peoples and ethnicities. Everything runs harmoniously on a tacit basis or consensus, until something apparently off scope runs into the club. Scope ... would be precisely the gauge that defines a frontier within which an implement fits into accepted discussion. It is pertinent to say that Thomas piece doesn't fit in the Miscellania forum, but because its scope comprehending "ethnographic artifacts other than arms and armor" still raises one or another doubt in this case. Would this be an European item, doubts would not arise, as the scope of such forum makes it clear that replicas or modern items are better dealt in more adequate venues. So reputing any individual modern creation, providing that it has a blade, as an ethnographic weapon, may be taken by some as a rather subjective interpretation; one that can be validated or rejected by the respective forum moderators, of course. This not meaning that eventual opinions that this is not an ethnographic artifact are not valid, hence risking the whipping post. And of course this is not about to encourage or discourage those who create whatever they intend; is more about something being or not in the adequate territory. Mind you, all just impressions of an ignaro .

30th July 2018, 10:53 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Thank you for your response Thomas. Yes, coal smoke can be something that attracts a lot of attention, however smoke from coke is really only noticeable in the start-up phase, and smoke from charcoal is no more obtrusive than smoke from a BBQ. Certainly a hammer on an anvil does make some noise, but in a normal residential environment it is really no more than might be expected from the usual weekend activity of home maintenance, certainly not something for anybody to get upset about. Of course, any type of heavy power hammer, even an Oliver, is out of the question in a residential setting. Grinding can be very noisy, as can any machine process, but use of other techniques can reduce noise considerably, and in my experience are not noticeably slower for finely crafted work. For example, if you use an angle grinder to remove fire scale, the softer heart of the forging is exposed and it is easy to file, particularly so if the forging has been annealed prior to beginning the bench work. Files, scrapers, cold chisels, and the use of rubbing sticks, rather than machine processes can reduce noise to almost nothing, and the use of these techniques automatically assumes the nature of a form of active meditation. Try using the old way of doing things Thomas, it is far more satisfying than using electricity. Yes, I know I have just recommended use of an angle grinder, and angle grinders use electricity, however it takes only a few minutes to remove fire scale from a forging, and the processing following removal of the scale is not something that can be heard outside the workshop. Fire scale can be removed with a file, but it is a lengthy process and wears out the file. As to time taken to produce historically accurate items, the longest time I ever spent on a blade --- note, "BLADE" not a complete knife --- was 49 man-days, +/- 400 man-hours. Time is totally irrelevant when one is attempting to achieve perfection.

30th July 2018, 11:13 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Gentlemen, Thomas may be producing modern interpretations of antique weaponry, but it is not able to be argued that simply because this work by Thomas is both modern, and an interpretation, it disqualifies the work from consideration as an ethnological artifact. Ethnology is way of learning about the world from the perspective of social relationships. It can be involved in both sociology and anthropology, and can examine the diversity of our own culture and society, as well as the diversity of foreign cultures and societies, both in the present, and in the past. I do agree that in this Forum most participants hold an interest in weaponry that is either foreign to their own culture, or weaponry that is antique, or both these things, but the elements of antiquity and foreignness are not necessary to define ethnology, quite the opposite in fact. My personal opinion is that people like Thomas should be encouraged as contributors, not sent into oblivion, as only a maker can understand the intricacies of actually making something, and the knowledge of the maker is invaluable to any person who attempts to understand the things in which he has an interest.

31st July 2018, 09:25 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Thank you for your reassurances David, and although much appreciated, I am certain they are unnecessary. Just as nobody in this thread has recommended that Thomas be banished, I also did not suggest that banishment was being considered by anybody, however if this current thread were to be moved from the Ethnographic Weapons Forum, into the Ethnographic Miscellanea Forum I do feel that such action could result in Thomas' contribution to our mutual interest being forgotten, and oblivion is the state of having been forgotten. The fact that you, yourself, have had experience in the craft of metal working is itself evidence of the varied ethnicity of North American culture. When we involve ourselves in ethnographic studies, we are indulging in a very broad based discipline, and where weaponry is an element of that ethnographic study, it becomes extremely difficult to define a boundary. Thomas' work is certainly not old, it is not replication of weaponry from an identifiable culture, but it is extremely difficult to argue that it does not fit into the parameters of ethnographic study.

31st July 2018, 11:39 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Who can disagree with your thoughtful approach to this matter, Fernando? Not I, that is certain. However, that said , I do have a couple comments. This Forum is designated as a "General forum for discussion of all ethnographic edged weapons and related topics". The ethnographic method of cultural investigation can be thought of as an empirical hands-on approach, as distinct from the purely theoretical method that under-pins both sociology and anthropology, in fact in the purest form of ethnographic examination of a culture the researcher enters the culture and becomes a part of it. I adopted this approach to the investigation of my own special field of study more than 30 years ago, after I found that the existing literature provided neither adequate, nor accurate information in respect of my needs. In the matter under discussion we seem to considering at least three elements. Firstly we have a craftsman working in Europe, we then have the craftsman working in a form that takes inspiration from Asia, and finally we have that craftsman using current era technology in a craft that has existed in both Europe and Asia for in excess of 2000 years. Considered objectively we can now understand that in the work of Thomas Hauschild we are seeing the interaction of one or more Asian cultures/societies on the thought processes of a European craftsman working in the current era, and providing an interpretation of Asian material culture by use of technology and techniques that are embedded in a sub-culture that is common to both Europe and Asia. The ethnographic method of enquiry investigates cultural norms and variations in a culture, ideally, in a living culture, but the historical approach can also be adopted where this is necessary. In my opinion, Thomas Hauschild and his work do provide a superb example of the interaction of cultural influence across time. Ethnographic enquiry is about understanding cultures and societies in order to better understand the anthropology and sociology of those cultures and societies. It is an inclusive method, not an exclusive method. In consideration of Thomas' we work have material that permits not only the obvious possibility of analysis of the physical object that Thomas produced, but a moment's thought will surely illuminate the multiple probabilities in the past where ideas from one society/culture penetrated an alien society/culture and sometimes gave rise to variation within that receiving society/culture. Much of this variation has concerned weaponry. To my mind, this is ethnology at its core, and my understanding is that this Forum exists for the purpose of discussion of weaponry and related topics from an ethnographic perspective. The lessons to be learned from Thomas' work go far beyond the object he has presented.

1st August 2018, 08:29 AM	#8
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,239	I agree with A.G. Ethnographic edged arms is not just a dead art over 100 yrs. old. they are alive and well and in use and in production by small smiths all over the world, using a variety of traditional and modern techniques. Mass produced replica knockoffs may not fit our forum, but there should be room for experimental archaeology that explains or perpetuates the technical construction and processes that produced our items of the past, for us and for the future, and this includes the current production of future antique artworks. Knowing how things are made, assembled and used increases rather than decreases our knowledge of the past, as well as the present.