Keris lurus for comment and discussion

David · 11th June 2018, 12:24 PM

A shame about that poor little mendak. But that is probably the easiest thing to replace on any keris.
Your handle is not particularly modern. It is an ornamental design common in Madura/East Jawa keris Madura is officially part of East Jawa). It seems to have some age and i would not be surprised if it were at least pre-WWII.
When you give your measurement as 45cm is that just the blade or are you including the hilt as well?

jagabuwana · 11th June 2018, 01:01 PM

Thanks for the information David - yes it does appear to be a Madura hulu
Also the length is just the blade, from the tip to the gonjo.

A. G. Maisey · 11th June 2018, 01:17 PM

The blade is old, better than fair, I'm almost certain that it will be Tuban classification (ie, Tangguh).

The hilt is Madura, Pamekesan Tumenggungan.

The Mendak is angkup randu, East Jawa/Madura.

It might be possible with patience and care to straighten the kinks out of the mendak, but if not, a replacement could be obtained.

This is a very nice keris as a first keris, it is virtually the same as the first keris I ever bought, about 64 years ago.

First step should be to clean up the hilt with a toothbrush, when all the dust is out of the carving, use a couple of drops of baby oil and hand rub it in.

Don't be in a rush to clean the blade, give it some oil and think about things for a while.

Bjorn · 11th June 2018, 08:08 PM

Congratulations on your first keris!
There's an incredible amount to learn about the keris, and by extension Indonesian history and society. The hilt you've shown is indeed of a common type, and it won't take you long at all to recognize the Madura style.

The previous comments have already addressed most of your questions.
As to the fit of a mendak, generally I would say it's not always a tight fit, but if it's of normal and even height (i.e. not squashed or otherwise compromised), it will fit snugly between the gonjo and ukiran. Often you'd still be able to rotate it, but the fit wouldn't be a loose one where the mendak will rotate by itself.

A. G. Maisey · 11th June 2018, 11:34 PM

Bjorn, sometimes , in fact often, the mendak is not a snug fit on the tang of a keris.

In older keris the tang is frequently very worn, eroded and thin, then the mendak will turn freely unless it is held in place by pressure from the hilt. In this situation, the best thing to do is to wind the thread that holds the hilt in place, all the way down the tang so that it prevents the mendak from moving back and forth. In the old days when hilts were held in place with jabung, the mendak was effectively held with jabung.

The thing is this, there is little standardisation in the case of mendak/tang/hilt. Often a Javanese planar hilt will have the bottom of the hilt recessed to accept a mendak, but just as often you need to try 20 or more mendak before you get an ideal fit. Sometimes a tang on a keris will be too thick for the general run of mendak, then you need to ream the mendak out --- if its just a couple of thou difference --- or get a mendak made specially, and special size mendak are not at all cheap or fast and easy to get.

The function of the mendak is not only to form a transition from hilt to blade, but also to act as a "shock absorber" if the blade strikes bone when it is used.

The way in which most keris are intended to be held means that the index finger is anchored against the top of the gonjo, if the blade tip jams up against bone, or anything hard, that will bring the blade to a jarring stop, and unless the user is wearing a keris ring --- something that seems not to have been usual for a long time, at least in Jawa --- the top of the gonjo will very likely damage the user's index finger.

Thus the mendak, rather than the metuk:- the mendak collapses and absorbs some of the shock. It does not need to be a firm, neat fit, it only needs to be in place and collapsible. The angkup randu style that is found on most old Madura and East Jawa keris is perhaps the most effect "shock absorber" of any mendak.

But of course, in a dress keris everything should be as neat as possible.

A. G. Maisey · 12th June 2018, 12:02 AM

tangguh > menangguh > penangguh : noun > action > doer

Old Tuban blades were often quite a bit more substantial than other Javanese blades.

The cross section is "like young bambu", ie, more or less ovoid, thick, no ada-ada.

The gonjo is short and thick, buntut urang is short, no waist between gendok and buntut urang, it is not ngebit rontal, but it is also not quite nguceng mati, it is pretty straight and generally ugly, the sirah cecak is short and a bit rounded. I cannot clearly see the profile of the sirah cecak from above, but what I can see seems to indicate that the sirah cecak conforms, and the rest of the gonjo does conform.

Gandhik is low, blumbangan is not deep.

The thing with tangguh is this Novan:- get a textbook example and photos that show what needs to be seen and many different tangguh you can can bet on --- maybe not absolutely 100%, but certainly 99% or better.

The problem with tangguh in the present day is that virtually nobody understands the how, where and why of it, thus it has become a commercial tool used to assist sales, and every keris ever made is supposed to be able to have a tangguh. Sorry baby, doesn't work like that. But try telling that to the half educated dipsticks that want to spout tangguh this that and the other all over the place. Best to say nothing.

Your keris I'd put my shirt on.

EDIT

It has been pointed out to me that I should mention that the word "tangguh" is both a part of Javanese language and Indonesian language, and that it has a number of meanings and applications.

Accordingly I have deleted some of my original text in the interests of clarity. What I have written about the word "tangguh" is adequate for the purposes of keris discussion

Rick · 12th June 2018, 01:00 AM

[QUOTE=A. G. Maisey]Thus the mendak, rather than the metuk:- the mendak collapses and absorbs some of the shock. It does not need to be a firm, neat fit, it only needs to be in place and collapsible. The angkup randu style that is found on most old Madura and East Jawa keris is perhaps the most effect "shock absorber" of any mendak./QUOTE]

Judging from the above quote Novan, your mendak may have seen such stresses.

jagabuwana · 12th June 2018, 10:37 AM

I never thought of the mendak as a practical shock absorber, very interesting. Funnily enough my decent command of Bahasa Indonesia means that I am aware of how to action/verb a noun, although I do get confused then when mixing English and Indonesian (eg if menangguh is the verb in Indonesian, then I am unsure if it is doing or giving tangguh in English). Not that it matters, seeing as it's not an English word anyway, and I think you all got what I meant. Thanks for all that info regarding mendak and tangguh, Alan.

So yes Rick it does seem that the collapsed mendak that it came with seems to have come under some sort of stress from above. Makes me wonder if this keris was ever used to stick anyone, though I guess it's more likely that whoever fit this new ukiran may have pushed it in way too far and hard and thus depressed the mendak. Still, I always wonder where a keris has been, whose hands it's passed through and what it has seen and done in its heyday, for no reason other than curiosity and fascination. Of course I know there is no way of knowing this in most cases.

But back to tangguh Tuban. I understand that there is no agreement (or perhaps consensus is a better word?) as to whether tangguh should be, or is a classification according to the keris' style or type, period, or perhaps all three.

So Alan, when you personally say that it's a pretty safe bet that this is keris tangguh Tuban, are you making a statement on the time period of when it was potentially created ie. during the time of Kerajaan Tuban, or that it was made in this period but not necessarily in Tuban and that it is simply a Tuban-style blade, or none of the above and perhaps "tangguh Tuban" can only mean that this is a keris that fits the parameters of what is said to be Tuban keris with no attempt given about it's location of manufacture and age?

For clarity:- I am only trying to get a better understanding of both (1) tangguh itself and (2) precisely what you mean and when you say that this could be tangguh Tuban.

Bjorn · 12th June 2018, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

In older keris the tang is frequently very worn, eroded and thin, then the mendak will turn freely unless it is held in place by pressure from the hilt.

Thank you for the clarification, Alan.
The above part of the quote is the main principle I had in mind, but you managed to express it far more clearly.

Out of curiosity, do you have an illustration of a keris ring? This is the first time I've heard of such a thing.

A. G. Maisey · 12th June 2018, 10:27 PM

No Bjorn, I do not have a keris ring, nor have I seen a picture of one. I believe I saw one once in Solo, but I could neither handle it nor buy it. My memory of it is that it had very slightly raised rim around each edge, this of course created a recessed central band which if it was a keris ring, the top of the gonjo would sit in, and the rim on each side would prevent it from slipping off the ring and biting into the finger.

I think perhaps Gardner may have mentioned keris rings, If not Gardner, one of the writers from that era.

jagabuwana · 12th June 2018, 11:37 PM

Thanks for elaborating on tangguh some more, I have a better understanding now. I'd read the linked article before but this gave a fuller, elaborated picture. I'm familiar with the Javanese worldview and emphasis placed towards belief, as it is much the same in Sundanese. I'm therefore surprised that Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo (alm.) would say that tangguh isn't "real". Was he extracting himself from the practice or shared belief and system, or was he saying that it was supported only by shared belief and understanding and therefore not "real" in the same way reading historical manuscripts is real? I know you mentioned that this is not the place to expand more on tangguh, so perhaps asking more is asking too much.

Regarding Tuban and Tuban blades:

I was under the false impression that all tangguh refered to Kingdom names or eras of reign. With Tuban being a trading port, does this necessarily mean that blades made in Tuban are of inferior craftsmanship and quality than blades made by keraton empus? And were they made and then sold "off the shelf" as opposed to having been commissioned by someone?

jagabuwana · 11th June 2018, 11:20 PM

Thank you Bjorn! All noted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The blade is old, better than fair, I'm almost certain that it will be Tuban classification (ie, Tangguh).

The hilt is Madura, Pamekesan Tumenggungan.

The Mendak is angkup randu, East Jawa/Madura.

It might be possible with patience and care to straighten the kinks out of the mendak, but if not, a replacement could be obtained.

This is a very nice keris as a first keris, it is virtually the same as the first keris I ever bought, about 64 years ago.

First step should be to clean up the hilt with a toothbrush, when all the dust is out of the carving, use a couple of drops of baby oil and hand rub it in.

Don't be in a rush to clean the blade, give it some oil and think about things for a while.

Thanks for the appraisal, Alan. I’m definitely pleased with it. I’ll be heeding your advice and not hurry to clean it - I think that is wise. I’ve oiled it and will take time to familiarise with it and vice versa. In absence of a sheath, I’ve loosely wrapped it in a square batik cloth. I became fixated on the wilah though, and forgot to clean the ukiran. I'll do so after work.

In previous posts of yours, I’ve noted that giving (unsure of the appropriate verb here) tangguh is difficult if not impossible to do using pictures alone. In this instance however you are almost certain that it would be tangguh Tuban (and I do understand that tangguh is the justifiable opinion of the knowledgeable appraiser). I'd be interested to know - what gives you such a strong indication in this case?

12th June 2018, 12:02 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	tangguh > menangguh > penangguh : noun > action > doer Old Tuban blades were often quite a bit more substantial than other Javanese blades. The cross section is "like young bambu", ie, more or less ovoid, thick, no ada-ada. The gonjo is short and thick, buntut urang is short, no waist between gendok and buntut urang, it is not ngebit rontal, but it is also not quite nguceng mati, it is pretty straight and generally ugly, the sirah cecak is short and a bit rounded. I cannot clearly see the profile of the sirah cecak from above, but what I can see seems to indicate that the sirah cecak conforms, and the rest of the gonjo does conform. Gandhik is low, blumbangan is not deep. The thing with tangguh is this Novan:- get a textbook example and photos that show what needs to be seen and many different tangguh you can can bet on --- maybe not absolutely 100%, but certainly 99% or better. The problem with tangguh in the present day is that virtually nobody understands the how, where and why of it, thus it has become a commercial tool used to assist sales, and every keris ever made is supposed to be able to have a tangguh. Sorry baby, doesn't work like that. But try telling that to the half educated dipsticks that want to spout tangguh this that and the other all over the place. Best to say nothing. Your keris I'd put my shirt on. EDIT It has been pointed out to me that I should mention that the word "tangguh" is both a part of Javanese language and Indonesian language, and that it has a number of meanings and applications. Accordingly I have deleted some of my original text in the interests of clarity. What I have written about the word "tangguh" is adequate for the purposes of keris discussion Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 12th June 2018 at 12:26 AM.

11th June 2018, 12:24 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,229	A shame about that poor little mendak. But that is probably the easiest thing to replace on any keris. Your handle is not particularly modern. It is an ornamental design common in Madura/East Jawa keris Madura is officially part of East Jawa). It seems to have some age and i would not be surprised if it were at least pre-WWII. When you give your measurement as 45cm is that just the blade or are you including the hilt as well?

11th June 2018, 01:01 PM	#2
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 291	Thanks for the information David - yes it does appear to be a Madura hulu Also the length is just the blade, from the tip to the gonjo.

11th June 2018, 01:17 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	The blade is old, better than fair, I'm almost certain that it will be Tuban classification (ie, Tangguh). The hilt is Madura, Pamekesan Tumenggungan. The Mendak is angkup randu, East Jawa/Madura. It might be possible with patience and care to straighten the kinks out of the mendak, but if not, a replacement could be obtained. This is a very nice keris as a first keris, it is virtually the same as the first keris I ever bought, about 64 years ago. First step should be to clean up the hilt with a toothbrush, when all the dust is out of the carving, use a couple of drops of baby oil and hand rub it in. Don't be in a rush to clean the blade, give it some oil and think about things for a while.

11th June 2018, 08:08 PM	#4
Bjorn Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 188	Congratulations on your first keris! There's an incredible amount to learn about the keris, and by extension Indonesian history and society. The hilt you've shown is indeed of a common type, and it won't take you long at all to recognize the Madura style. The previous comments have already addressed most of your questions. As to the fit of a mendak, generally I would say it's not always a tight fit, but if it's of normal and even height (i.e. not squashed or otherwise compromised), it will fit snugly between the gonjo and ukiran. Often you'd still be able to rotate it, but the fit wouldn't be a loose one where the mendak will rotate by itself.

11th June 2018, 11:34 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Bjorn, sometimes , in fact often, the mendak is not a snug fit on the tang of a keris. In older keris the tang is frequently very worn, eroded and thin, then the mendak will turn freely unless it is held in place by pressure from the hilt. In this situation, the best thing to do is to wind the thread that holds the hilt in place, all the way down the tang so that it prevents the mendak from moving back and forth. In the old days when hilts were held in place with jabung, the mendak was effectively held with jabung. The thing is this, there is little standardisation in the case of mendak/tang/hilt. Often a Javanese planar hilt will have the bottom of the hilt recessed to accept a mendak, but just as often you need to try 20 or more mendak before you get an ideal fit. Sometimes a tang on a keris will be too thick for the general run of mendak, then you need to ream the mendak out --- if its just a couple of thou difference --- or get a mendak made specially, and special size mendak are not at all cheap or fast and easy to get. The function of the mendak is not only to form a transition from hilt to blade, but also to act as a "shock absorber" if the blade strikes bone when it is used. The way in which most keris are intended to be held means that the index finger is anchored against the top of the gonjo, if the blade tip jams up against bone, or anything hard, that will bring the blade to a jarring stop, and unless the user is wearing a keris ring --- something that seems not to have been usual for a long time, at least in Jawa --- the top of the gonjo will very likely damage the user's index finger. Thus the mendak, rather than the metuk:- the mendak collapses and absorbs some of the shock. It does not need to be a firm, neat fit, it only needs to be in place and collapsible. The angkup randu style that is found on most old Madura and East Jawa keris is perhaps the most effect "shock absorber" of any mendak. But of course, in a dress keris everything should be as neat as possible.

12th June 2018, 01:00 AM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	[QUOTE=A. G. Maisey]Thus the mendak, rather than the metuk:- the mendak collapses and absorbs some of the shock. It does not need to be a firm, neat fit, it only needs to be in place and collapsible. The angkup randu style that is found on most old Madura and East Jawa keris is perhaps the most effect "shock absorber" of any mendak./QUOTE] Judging from the above quote Novan, your mendak may have seen such stresses.

12th June 2018, 10:37 AM	#8
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 291	I never thought of the mendak as a practical shock absorber, very interesting. Funnily enough my decent command of Bahasa Indonesia means that I am aware of how to action/verb a noun, although I do get confused then when mixing English and Indonesian (eg if menangguh is the verb in Indonesian, then I am unsure if it is doing or giving tangguh in English). Not that it matters, seeing as it's not an English word anyway, and I think you all got what I meant. Thanks for all that info regarding mendak and tangguh, Alan. So yes Rick it does seem that the collapsed mendak that it came with seems to have come under some sort of stress from above. Makes me wonder if this keris was ever used to stick anyone, though I guess it's more likely that whoever fit this new ukiran may have pushed it in way too far and hard and thus depressed the mendak. Still, I always wonder where a keris has been, whose hands it's passed through and what it has seen and done in its heyday, for no reason other than curiosity and fascination. Of course I know there is no way of knowing this in most cases. But back to tangguh Tuban. I understand that there is no agreement (or perhaps consensus is a better word?) as to whether tangguh should be, or is a classification according to the keris' style or type, period, or perhaps all three. So Alan, when you personally say that it's a pretty safe bet that this is keris tangguh Tuban, are you making a statement on the time period of when it was potentially created ie. during the time of Kerajaan Tuban, or that it was made in this period but not necessarily in Tuban and that it is simply a Tuban-style blade, or none of the above and perhaps "tangguh Tuban" can only mean that this is a keris that fits the parameters of what is said to be Tuban keris with no attempt given about it's location of manufacture and age? For clarity:- I am only trying to get a better understanding of both (1) tangguh itself and (2) precisely what you mean and when you say that this could be tangguh Tuban.

12th June 2018, 10:27 PM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	No Bjorn, I do not have a keris ring, nor have I seen a picture of one. I believe I saw one once in Solo, but I could neither handle it nor buy it. My memory of it is that it had very slightly raised rim around each edge, this of course created a recessed central band which if it was a keris ring, the top of the gonjo would sit in, and the rim on each side would prevent it from slipping off the ring and biting into the finger. I think perhaps Gardner may have mentioned keris rings, If not Gardner, one of the writers from that era.

12th June 2018, 11:37 PM	#11
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 291	Thanks for elaborating on tangguh some more, I have a better understanding now. I'd read the linked article before but this gave a fuller, elaborated picture. I'm familiar with the Javanese worldview and emphasis placed towards belief, as it is much the same in Sundanese. I'm therefore surprised that Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo (alm.) would say that tangguh isn't "real". Was he extracting himself from the practice or shared belief and system, or was he saying that it was supported only by shared belief and understanding and therefore not "real" in the same way reading historical manuscripts is real? I know you mentioned that this is not the place to expand more on tangguh, so perhaps asking more is asking too much. Regarding Tuban and Tuban blades: I was under the false impression that all tangguh refered to Kingdom names or eras of reign. With Tuban being a trading port, does this necessarily mean that blades made in Tuban are of inferior craftsmanship and quality than blades made by keraton empus? And were they made and then sold "off the shelf" as opposed to having been commissioned by someone?