Greaves-Winston typology

Nathaniel · 3rd April 2018, 01:15 AM

Hello Peter,

Thanks for bringing up this important topic. Burmese weapon's are certainly very interesting but there is little information published. It certainly is a subject worthy of additional research.

From what I remember of the Greaves-Winston typology there was three main Burmese types.

1. Bama/bamar - Ethnic majority of Myanmar, which the swords hand a short handle and curved blade

2. Kachin - northern minority group, whose dha featured a short hand, straight blade with square tip

3. Shan - northern minority whose dha, featured lotus bud pommel, medium size handle and curved blade

Ian, certainly could comment about things and I'm sure he might chime in here soon.

Nathaniel · 3rd April 2018, 01:59 AM

*** Also of important note, I know both Andrew W. and Ian G. had stated that this general classification they put together was meant to be the start of a discussion, which they hoped and expected would be in time corrected and built upon.

Nathaniel · 3rd April 2018, 02:00 AM

Example: Greaves-Winston typology

1. Bama/bamar - Ethnic majority of Myanmar, which the swords hand a short handle and curved blade

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0050.htm

Nathaniel · 3rd April 2018, 02:02 AM

Example: Greaves-Winston typology

2. Kachin - northern minority group, whose dha featured a short hand, straight blade with square tip

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/C0034.htm

Nathaniel · 3rd April 2018, 02:19 AM

Example: Greaves-Winston typology

3. Shan - northern minority whose dha, featured lotus bud pommel, medium size handle and curved blade

Nathaniel · 3rd April 2018, 02:23 AM

Also a more detailed article was written by Ian, Mark & Andrew for the History of Steel in Eastern Asia exhibition in Macao in 2006.

Thankfully the website for the exhibition is still working, it is a great reference.

THE SWORDS OF CONTINENTAL SOUTHEAST ASIA
Ian A. Greaves, Mark I. Bowditch & Andrew Y. Winston
http://www.arscives.com/historysteel...ea.article.htm

Sword list:
http://www.arscives.com/historysteel....swordlist.htm

Glossary:
http://www.arscives.com/historysteel...a.glossary.htm

Peter Dekker · 3rd April 2018, 09:20 AM

Thanks Nathaniel, very useful!

Bowditch on his website, last updated July 28, 2007;

"One significant change that has been made is the phasing out of the now-obsolete Greaves-Winston typing system. We have learned a lot since this was first developed, and we are able now to define types more appropriately along ethnic lines. "

But he continues "As noted, not all of the pages have been updated with the new typology"

I like to get a handle on the old and new typology and would be most interested in the primary sources that helped the typologies. There must be either:

1. Period accounts
2. Period drawings
3. Early photographs
4. Benchmark pieces with markings and/or sound provenance

Unfortunately, no list of these seems to have been left.

The Kachin type is mentioned in Egerton, 1880.

I quite like Bell's little paper which is a welcome oasis in the overall lack of sources. But he too only described local conditions for smiths and not so much the types of swords made.

3rd April 2018, 01:15 AM	#1
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Hello Peter, Thanks for bringing up this important topic. Burmese weapon's are certainly very interesting but there is little information published. It certainly is a subject worthy of additional research. From what I remember of the Greaves-Winston typology there was three main Burmese types. 1. Bama/bamar - Ethnic majority of Myanmar, which the swords hand a short handle and curved blade 2. Kachin - northern minority group, whose dha featured a short hand, straight blade with square tip 3. Shan - northern minority whose dha, featured lotus bud pommel, medium size handle and curved blade Ian, certainly could comment about things and I'm sure he might chime in here soon. Last edited by Nathaniel; 3rd April 2018 at 01:57 AM.

3rd April 2018, 02:00 AM	#3
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Example: Greaves-Winston typology 1. Bama/bamar - Ethnic majority of Myanmar, which the swords hand a short handle and curved blade http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0050.htm Attached Images

3rd April 2018, 02:02 AM	#4
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Example: Greaves-Winston typology 2. Kachin - northern minority group, whose dha featured a short hand, straight blade with square tip http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/C0034.htm Attached Images

3rd April 2018, 02:19 AM	#5
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Example: Greaves-Winston typology 3. Shan - northern minority whose dha, featured lotus bud pommel, medium size handle and curved blade Attached Images

3rd April 2018, 01:59 AM	#2
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	*** Also of important note, I know both Andrew W. and Ian G. had stated that this general classification they put together was meant to be the start of a discussion, which they hoped and expected would be in time corrected and built upon.

3rd April 2018, 02:23 AM	#6
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Also a more detailed article was written by Ian, Mark & Andrew for the History of Steel in Eastern Asia exhibition in Macao in 2006. Thankfully the website for the exhibition is still working, it is a great reference. THE SWORDS OF CONTINENTAL SOUTHEAST ASIA Ian A. Greaves, Mark I. Bowditch & Andrew Y. Winston http://www.arscives.com/historysteel...ea.article.htm Sword list: http://www.arscives.com/historysteel....swordlist.htm Glossary: http://www.arscives.com/historysteel...a.glossary.htm

3rd April 2018, 09:20 AM	#7
Peter Dekker Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Kingdom of the Netherlands Posts: 64	Thanks Nathaniel, very useful! Bowditch on his website, last updated July 28, 2007; "One significant change that has been made is the phasing out of the now-obsolete Greaves-Winston typing system. We have learned a lot since this was first developed, and we are able now to define types more appropriately along ethnic lines. " But he continues "As noted, not all of the pages have been updated with the new typology" I like to get a handle on the old and new typology and would be most interested in the primary sources that helped the typologies. There must be either: 1. Period accounts 2. Period drawings 3. Early photographs 4. Benchmark pieces with markings and/or sound provenance Unfortunately, no list of these seems to have been left. The Kachin type is mentioned in Egerton, 1880. I quite like Bell's little paper which is a welcome oasis in the overall lack of sources. But he too only described local conditions for smiths and not so much the types of swords made.